PM-9 rear sight off center

[lyon]

Is it normal for the rear sight to be off center to get the PM-9 to shoot to POA?


Lyon

[Bob Landry]

Yes, it's not unusual.

[deadhead1971]

:crazy:

No I would not think so. The front and rear sights should be centered, and the gun should shoot dead center.

When I first got the PM9, I was hitting 3" left at 20 and 30 feet. I thought the rear sight was off and needed adjustment. No so, as I shot more, I started hitting dead center due to better trigger control. It was around the 300 round mark that I started hitting center. For the first few hundred rounds, I was sure the rear sight was off and needed to be knocked to the right. I have proof. See this-- http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistols/444-accuracy-pm9.html

lyon--if you just got a PM9 and are hitting left (right handed shooter), you need to practice some more.

Maybe I did not understand the question.

[In-Yo-Grill]

If your sight is visually off then you need to get it centered. My MK9 rear sight was off when I first got it. I eventually got night sights put on and the smitty did a good job of getting them on right. Now it's a sweet shooter.

[Bob Landry]

There is no way that every production gun is going to have a barrel fitted so that it will shoot perfectly to point of aim. That's the purpose of dovetailing instead of welding sights on it, to allow for windage variations by drifting the sight, either fron or rear in one direction or another. The same idea applies to filing down front sights or replacing them with taller ones to adjust for elevation. The amount of money spent on adjustable sights will attest to that. As another example, look at the issues some of the fixed sight Ruger single actions have that do not shoot to POA. The fix for that is dial in a load to shoot where you want it, clock the barrel, or work with the front sights.

[jocko]

they should come centered but that does not mean they willshoot dead on for YOU. Ones shooting style dictates how adjustments need to be made. I being a lefty my groups tend to be always right of center. I have had to move my rear sight to compenstate for my shooing ways. It shoots dead on now. an advantage of dovetailed sights to. Certainly not all people shoot the same, or see the same sight picture either A top notch shooter or one with excellent shooting form shooting my PM9 will now shoot off target but for me it is where I need it to be.

Bob Landry is dead center with his comments IMO.

[lyon]

Don’t think it is me as I shoot a lot of other double action guns, some with much stiffer triggers than the PM-9..

I am happy with the grouping but as you can see in the picture (lower left insert picture) I had to move my rear sight WAY over to side to get it to group near POA..

Lyon


http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/100mphfarmer/Guns_Ammo/Kahrrearsight.jpg

[jeep45238]

Don’t think it is me as I shoot a lot of other double action guns, some with much stiffer triggers than the PM-9..



It IS you. While it is very true that no 2 guns of the same make/model/caliber will shoot to the exact point of aim, we're dealing with pistols, not 1/4 MOA repeatable bolt actions here. When centered in the dovetails, the sights will be close enough to poa that most people won't be able to notice. The same is true about the height of the sight. You'll find that almost every 5" 1911 with novak sights runs a .175-.180" tall front sight post, though the officer models are much taller. Fixed sights are close enough to not worry about, IF you do your part!

Most people that are used to double actions are NOT used to how close the backstrap (hence the palm) is to the breaking point of the Kahrs (which is at or slightly past vertical).

Like it or not, that's how it is with these guns. You HAVE to revert back to basics and focus EXTENSIVELY on that trigger finger and isolating it's movement.

If you need to drift the sights, and you do so to make it hit point of aim when you grab the gun and just shoot, that's fine and dandy - but that is no way, shape, or form, the fault of the gun, solely the shooter. Would this matter in a defensive situation? Well, having damn near been there, I don't even remember drawing the gun, but it was right in front of me pretty quick. I highly doubt you'll be looking for a sight picture at all.

Short of a burr on the crown or a very very loose sight, excessive windage is almost ALWAYS the shooter, not the gun.



Most people are aware of the whole "put the pad of your index finger on the trigger" aspect. MOST of these people are NOT aware that to keep the windage proper you HAVE TO HAVE YOUR FINGER PERPENDICULAR TO THE BORE WHEN THE SHOT BREAKS. If you fail to do this, especially on a gun with a sweeping trigger with a long pull, your finger will wind up putting pressure on the SIDE of the trigger, moving the gun - vs. on the face of the trigger and keeping the windage true.

Normal starting point:
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/Range%20Time/Kahr%20T40/Photo44.jpg
Normal ending point (notice portion of finger that moves the trigger is NOT 90* to the bore):
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/Range%20Time/Kahr%20T40/Photo45.jpg

Normal starting point:
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/Range%20Time/Kahr%20T40/Photo46.jpg
Modified ending point (last digit is much closer to perpendicular to the bore when the shot breaks)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/Range%20Time/Kahr%20T40/Photo47.jpg

[lyon]

Mike,
Will see what happens if I play with my trigger finger placement. The thing I can’t understand is I shoot my friends PM-40 to POA (actually just a little right of center) & his sights are still same as when he bought the gun (on center) the (PM-9/PM-40) are pretty well the same gun aren’t they?

Lyon

[jeep45238]

They're pretty much the same gun from what I'm aware of. Unfortunately the only PM series I've had a chance to put some range time on suffered from a massive burr at the bottom of the barrel that pulled shots low by a solid 3 foot at 7 yards.

The owner (former friend of mine) was an idiot and sold it off, without even calling Kahr to rectify the problem, or talk to a local gunsmith. She refuses to even look at any Kahr now. Truth be told, she does that with a lot of things - it's never her that's the problem, it's everything (or everybody) else - hence the former friend designation.

Give me about 8 minutes and I'll have a youtube video uploaded demonstrating the difference between the series of pictures above.

[jeep45238]

YouTube - Trigger Pull (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKdXmcdB5WE)

Video should be uploaded in about 5 minutes, I need to get running due to the weather :)

[jocko]

lyon. I realize we all shoot alot of guns but the kahrs are the most difficult gun to shoot IMO. I have been shooting for 46 years and I honeslty feel the kahrs are hardest to ever get a handle on . My rear sight is off center alot like yours. I even at one time had to move my front sight some to even compensate more for my shooting errors. today after literaly thousands of rounds down range that rear sight and front sight are starting to return to the centered position as when I got the gun. In my opinion and certainly not calling you out on it either. I do believe it is the shooter behind the gun and not the gun itself. If you realy expect to shoot um in the same hole with these kahrs, then also U are dreamin my friend. That loooooong trigger is just that loooong. I have talked to quite a few kahr owners who truly love their guns but also in the same breath state, they are a bugger to shoot accurately to.. No doubt in my mind the more you shoot that gun the more that sight will come back to center, maybe not all the way but again that is what dovetailed sights are made to do also.

You did not state what distance you were shooting from either and personally your group to me is excellent. not sure what you expect...

[deadhead1971]

Yep, I see the rear sight moved to the right. That means you were hitting left which means you are right handed. Too much trigger finger, jerking will cause hitting left.

Dry fire a few times and see if the front part of the gun moves left. I did this and found I jerked the trigger due to recoil anticipation.

[lyon]

Mike, I just went out to my range & tried another 12 shots with a straight finger tip & not a whole of difference in POI, slightly larger groups & a litter higher but basically the same POI.

I have been shooting a lot or years & am pretty good at calling my shots so know where my sight is when the shot goes off & unless I do something stupid the bullet pretty well goes where my front sight is.

You would think that if my problem was trigger finger related I would have groups moving all over the target & the POI wouldn’t be where my sight bead is at instant of ignition.

I will play with the trigger finger some more to see if I can effect anything.


Lyon

[deadhead1971]

Lyon--Did you every say how many rounds you had through the PM9? I can't remember--how many?

If you have hundreds of rounds through it, I'll back off on my comments. If it's new and you have say 300 rds or less, then I say the groups will get better with practice--to the center.

[lyon]

lyon. Clip~
You did not state what distance you were shooting from either and personally your group to me is excellent. not sure what you expect...


Jocko, that was standing at 18 yards from target so the muzzle is probably about 17 yards from target face..

I’m not at all unhappy with the grouping of the little devil gun just the fact I had to move the sight so far off center to get the POI to POA.. This was with practice ammo as I don’t group quite as good with my carry ammo as it is a bit snappier..

Lyon

[lyon]

Lyon--Did you every say how many rounds you had through the PM9? I can't remember--how many?

If you have hundreds of rounds through it, I'll back off on my comments. If it's new and you have say 300 rds or less, then I say the groups will get better with practice--to the center.



deadhead1971, I haven’t kept accurate records but am well over 800 rounds & maybe closer to 1000 through it by now. This was supposed to be my new carry gun to replace my tired old J-Frame so I don’t blast away 50 or 100 round at a time. I have a range out back so just slip out there a few times a day & shoot 10 to 12 shots then put it up for a while. I’m kind of old school so don’t like to practice just to shoot bullets I like to practice proper form so only shoot a few shots at a time. But I do shoot many times a day.


Maybe a little history here: When I first got the gun it shot a little left but not real bad, the more I shot it the more left it shot & seemed to quit getting worse around 300 rounds or so. At that point I drifted the sight a little & it was better but still shot left so I then drifted it to it’s present position. It is pretty good where it is at now but bothers me it is so far off slide center line.

I did put a spent brass in the chamber & tried to look down the barrel & center that brass & when I do that the barrel seems to line up with my drifted sight position latterly (obviously not in the vertical plain)..

Lyon

[jocko]

Jocko, that was standing at 18 yards from target so the muzzle is probably about 17 yards from target face..

I’m not at all unhappy with the grouping of the little devil gun just the fact I had to move the sight so far off center to get the POI to POA.. This was with practice ammo as I don’t group quite as good with my carry ammo as it is a bit snappier..

Lyon

Jesus Christ, that is one hell of a distance and for a group like that I would kill for it. You are way way way under estimating your shooting ability IMO. That is damn great shooting at that distance. For me about 10 yards further than I ever practice to. I'm no expert shooter but I have been shooting for over 48 years and trust me when i say I cannot do any better than your pictured group at 7 yards. Get up around 7 yards and do some serious testing results will blow your mind. Your groups are excellent and I don't think any poster/reader here will tell you any different. These are not target guns. Yup they will shoot in the same hole just 99% of the shooters cannot do it. This loooooong trigger system on kahrs is not indicative of a target gun and you know that. It is what it is , a close up personal defense gun that will save your life. My bet if you priacrticed at 7 yards and under you would end up moving your sight back towards center also.

Man I am telling you that is some fine shooting. leave the damn thing alone and just shoot it like you stole it. Personally 17 yards is to far to be practicing, sure occassionaly but you should be 10 yards and under with most all your defense stuff. Practice close, get fast close POA is the best way to shoot close, See that front sight clearly and the rest will fall into place. In a true defense scenario, I serioulsy doubt if your gonna line up those sights like your are doing now.

My hat is off to that type of shooting with a kahr, especially. I can do that with my G19 which is tuned and has now great fiber optic adjustable sights on it, but that is a total different gun that the kahrs. the Glock trigger system is awesome compared to a kahr's but again two different systems to. No safety's on kahrs, pull and shoot, Glocks need that trigger SAS system due to such a short trigger pull, there fore better accuracy to..

Buy a half dozen snap caps and throw then in with 30 rounds and let your wife or someone load your magazines for you, I can assure you those snap caps inserted and you not knowing where or how many will show your shoorting ways real fast. My bet you will find your self jerking the trigger, in anticipation of the bang thing. Best test you can ever do for any gun. If guns could talk also , they would tell you alot to.

[lyon]

Jocko, I’m not here complaining about the accuracy or grouping as I am happy with the way the little gun shoots my concern was more with the sights being way off center to get it to hit to POA.

Also remember that was shot slow fire with practice ammo. The groups open up a fair amount with my high power carry ammo & I get some unwanted fliers when doing quick fire drills.

Lyon