Some Ammo Test Results For PM9s & K9s

[jg rider]

Since I'm new here I think I should contribute what I discovered

Here's some old PM9 test results I did several years ago with wet packs and 4 layers of denim. The paks were made per instructions to come as close to ballistic gelatin as possible. These represent 5 shot results. These were what we preferred of all the brands and weights we tested. +P ammo was too uncontrollable. Wife and I each conceal carry PM9s during the warm weather. She likes the Win 147 RA9T because of the lower felt recoil of all we tested, for double / triple taps, and so do I. The heavier the bullet, the less the felt recoil. We tested things like Win. Black Talon, Win. bonded stuff, Speer Gold Dots, Hornady Tap and some I don't remember. All these others had mixed results from being uncontrollable to going through 24" of wet pak. When I retested the over penetrating rounds through a 4 1/2" G17 barrel the results were better because of the higher velocity, but I still prefer the 147 HST/RA9T stuff.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/PM9%20Tests/PM9-Fed147HST599labeled.jpg


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/PM9%20Tests/PM9-Fed147HST624labeled.jpg


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/PM9%20Tests/PM9-Fed147HSTlabeled.jpg


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/PM9%20Tests/PM9-Win147RA9T676labeled.jpg


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/PM9%20Tests/PM9-Win147RA9T698labeled.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/PM9%20Tests/PM9-Win147RA9Tlabeled.jpg

[jg rider]

In the winter we each carry K9s. She still uses the Win 147 in her's, but I use Fed 147 HST in mine.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/K9%20Tests/K9-Fed124HST597labeled.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/K9%20Tests/K9-Fed124HST605labeled.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/K9%20Tests/K9-Fed147HST628labeled.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/K9%20Tests/K9-Fed147HST635labeled.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/K9%20Tests/K9-Fed147HST.jpg

[jg rider]

Here's more K9 results

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/K9%20Tests/K9-Win147RA9T657labeled.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/K9%20Tests/K9-Win147RA9T645labeled.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/K9%20Tests/K9-Win147RA9T664labeled.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/K9%20Tests/K9-Win147RA9T.jpg

[JFootin]

Man, that's impressive stuff. I've been wanting to try some 147 grain loads. Some have posted about failure of the slow 147s to expand. They were using gallon jugs of water, I think. Could the four layers of denim be enhancing expansion beyond normal conditions? I mean, who wears four layers of denim? If it were just a T-shirt, might we have seen some failure to expand?

[jg rider]

Man, that's impressive stuff. I've been wanting to try some 147 grain loads. Some have posted about failure of the slow 147s to expand. They were using gallon jugs of water, I think. Could the four layers of denim be enhancing expansion beyond normal conditions? I mean, who wears four layers of denim? If it were just a T-shirt, might we have seen some failure to expand?

Hi JFootin
The 4 layers of denim is / was the FBI standard to be placed in front of ballistic gelatin. They are testing to make sure that the denim doesn't plug up the bullet cavity so it couldn't expand and to make sure that penetration was adequate. To the FBI penetration was more important than expansion since the 1986 Miami / Dade county shoot out. I believe that bullet weight retention was another factor.
If you look real close at my photos you'll see some denim fibers on the mushroomed rounds

[mr surveyor]

nice work.

If you don't mind me asking, who's wet pack design criteria were you using?

And, do you have the wet pack to gel penetration ratio numbers?

I've been "planning" to do some wetpack testing myself, but just too lazy to properly do the wetpack build.

Thanks for sharing


surv

[Thunder71]

Great info, thanks!

Just ordered 100 Federal HST's, thanks... thanks a LOT, grrrr. :)

Picked the 124 standard pressure based on these findings, I'd imagine your results may have been similar but I didn't see the 124 tested in the PM9 in the test above.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1196741.html

[jg rider]

nice work.

If you don't mind me asking, who's wet pack design criteria were you using?

And, do you have the wet pack to gel penetration ratio numbers?

I've been "planning" to do some wetpack testing myself, but just too lazy to properly do the wetpack build.

Thanks for sharing


surv

Those tests were done a long time ago. I went through my bookmarks fast and came up with this

http://www.frfrogspad.com/wetpak.htm

[Roncodrummer]

Does anyone have any input on recommended ammo for a Kahr PM40? I am using Blazer 180 gr ball ammo for break in/target, but I'm looking at CorBon 135 gr for personal defense. Any suggestions?

[TucsonMTB]

Does anyone have any input on recommended ammo for a Kahr PM40? I am using Blazer 180 gr ball ammo for break in/target, but I'm looking at CorBon 135 gr for personal defense. Any suggestions?
I have had good luck with Winchester Ranger 135 grain Q4368. Even at $24 per box from Midway at this link (http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/556576/winchester-ranger-ammunition-40-s-and-w-135-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-50), it is less expensive than CorBon.
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/medium/556/556576.jpg
I believe the bullets CorBon uses are a very similar in shape and their rounds have about the same overall length, so they should feed well too.

Best of luck! Let us know how it all works out. :)

[Bill K]

Those are some scary looking petals. How can you look at results like that and feel 9mm is inadequate for SD?

[jg rider]

Great info, thanks!

Just ordered 100 Federal HST's, thanks... thanks a LOT, grrrr. :)

Picked the 124 standard pressure based on these findings, I'd imagine your results may have been similar but I didn't see the 124 tested in the PM9 in the test above.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1196741.html

I think I have them but I forgot to post them

[jg rider]

nice work.

If you don't mind me asking, who's wet pack design criteria were you using?

And, do you have the wet pack to gel penetration ratio numbers?

I've been "planning" to do some wetpack testing myself, but just too lazy to properly do the wetpack build.

Thanks for sharing


surv

I finally found the wet pack to ballistic gelatin formula.
Penetration into wet pack is supposedly only 2/3 of what it is in gelatin.
Example:
So 10" pen. in wet pack is 15" in gelatin
10" / 2 = 5"+ 10" = 15 or 10" X 3 / 2 = 15"

[flieger67]

Thanks for sharing those pictures. It's really interesting to see what the rounds look like and how they expanded and penetrated.

Did you notice any propensity for the jackets to separate with any of the ammo?

[jg rider]

Thanks for sharing those pictures. It's really interesting to see what the rounds look like and how they expanded and penetrated.

Did you notice any propensity for the jackets to separate with any of the ammo?

The jackets all stayed intact. There was no sign of any of them attempting to separate. There was a little weight loss with the Win. 147s as stated in the pics.

[flieger67]

Thanks for the response.

[GunnerD]

Did you test any 124 gr ammo in the PM9?

[Yogi 117]

Nice info jg. I carry the Federal HST or Speer Gold Dot in 124 gr +P in the G26. Love both rounds. I have never ventured into the 147 gr arena, but looks like the HST did just fine. :)

[jg rider]

Did you test any 124 gr ammo in the PM9?

Yes I did, like Gold Dot +p, Win 127+p and others, but I didn't keep any data on them. I only have stuff on 124 Fed HST and Fed. Tactical.
I'll post them as soon as I can find them

[jg rider]

Did you test any 124 gr ammo in the PM9?

Here's a long winded write up I did many years ago, and 124 results that I found

Hi, my name's John and I'm a long time lurker and first time poster on his forum.

This past April, I got 2 Kahr PM9's for concealed carry for the wife and myself, I started looking for a reliable defense round out of the 3" barrel. We also have Kahr K9's since 1999 that we carry concealed. We've both legally carried concealed for many years.
After not really finding many bullet comparison test results for 3" & 3 1/2" 9mm Kahr pistols, or for short barreled revolvers, I decided to run my own wet pack tests on ammo that interested me. The tests have 3 criteria, the first is good penetration, the second is expansion, per FBI standards through 4 layers of denim, and the third is to find the softest felt recoil for multiple follow up shots for my wife ( not me ).

Before someone gets on the "practice, practice, practice" soap box, as I've read on this thread, please allow me to say that we have our own 25 yard outdoor pistol range, and she shoots more in 1 month than most people do in 1 year. She practices moving, drawing, and firing out of a fanny pack, or a custom made paddle holster, at single and multiple targets. (I don't need to practice )

These tests are a work in progress as the weather allows and I collect newspaper. What I have in my favor is that I can shoot off of my back deck between downpours.My goal is to test 9mm Kahr PM9 and a K9, a 1 5/8" .38 S&W mod.60, a 2" .38 titanium S&W, a 2 1/2" .357 S&W mod. 66, and a 4 1/4" .45 1911 Colt commander or an Officers Model.

I'll try to make my packs consistent with what I've read from people that seem to know what they're doing.
My procedure will be to put the dry news print into plastic milk crates and then submerse them in a live stock trough for 24 hrs. Press out the water and and let the water drain out. Then I'll transfer the wet paper into a plastic garbage bag lined cardboard box. On the inside back side of the box I double up on the thickness of the cardboard. I want to allow for flexibility but also for the thicker skin of the human back. Call me obsessive.
The only thing missing is some pig bone in bedded in the wet pack.
Since the winter climate here is mostly mild but wet, I felt that 4 layers of a denim shirt was adequate.
The packs will be about 24" deep.
All velocities are measured on a PACT mkIII timer and chronograph.
All recovered diameters are measured at the widest points, and in some cases at two different areas, as explained below.
All penetration measurements are the total of an inserted rod into the bullet hole to the base of the bullet plus the length of the recovered bullet.
Since wetpack penetation is supposedly only 2/3 of ballistic gelitan, there's a formula to convert. pen. x 3 / 2. So 10" times 3 = 30 divided by 2 = 15"

This first set of tests is out of a PM9. The distance is 10', with a chronograph set up mid way. I fired a maximum 9 shots into each wet pack.

Since We couldn't afford to purchase all the test ammo, I borrowed some 124 Gold Dot +P, 127 Win. +P, and 124 Rem Golden Saber +P from friends, some standard pressure stuff from L.E. acquaintances, and I bought some.

Since we only had limited amounts of borrowed ammo the first test was for felt recoil. We didn't do any wet pack test with the rounds that wouldn't allow controlled fast accurate follow up shots.

The ammo recorded were, Fed. 124 Tactical (LE9T1), Fed. HST standard pressure, Fed. 147 HST, Win. 147 RA9T and an oldie, Win. 147 ST. All this ammo is labeled Law Enforcement, but can be found.

First up was Fed.124 Tactical. What a big disappointment. The bullets all traveled over 1000 fps (1042.0, 1050.9, 1059.6) out of a 3" barrel, and only one expanded (.650"). The others went through the wet pack. Don't be fooled by the expansion. If you push back the two protruding petals, the bullet measures.574" When I traced the bullet paths of the other two, I could see that the holes from the over penetration rounds were the same diameter, front to back. There were no attempts at any expansion. I can only conclude that the noses were plugged up.
Federal advertises this round as +p, but the box doesn't say so, and I don't think the advertised 1160 fps velocity is +p.
This round had the most felt recoil. (sharp snap), especially out of a polymer frame.

Next was Federal 124 HST standard pressure. At about the same velocity as the above Federal Tactical, these expanded reliably (.519", .537"). I can remember back to the 70's, early 80's when you'd be lucky to get this kind of expansion. And the penetration was 8 1/2", 9 3/8".
In our opinion the felt recoil was sharp but didn't have the snap to it like the Federal Tactical. Less slide velocity?

Next was the Federal 147 HST. All I can say is WOW! .599", and .624" expansion from a bullet only traveling at 927.5 and 929.9 fps with a penetration of 8 1/2" and 8 9/16" out of a 3" barrel. I guess that the longer score lines on the side of the bullet help with the expansion. If the formula to convert wet packs to FBI ballistic gelatin standards is accurate, I'd be happy with this round out of a 3" Kahr PM9 in my area's climate.
The expanded flower was so pretty that as a goof I used the expanded bullet to stamp a flower design on some old leather.
This is a nice low felt recoil round. It's true that the heavier 147 gr. have less felt recoil. It's a slower drawn out pulse.

Next up was the Winchester 147 RA9TA. To me these are a big question mark. First what do I measure for expansion, the widest point from petal tip to petal tip, or the widest part of the main core ? So I measured both. Next these rounds had the lowest velocities (811.5 and 860.3 fps) and the worst velocity spread (48.8 fps) Next when I weighed the recovered bullets, they weighed less than advertised (141.6 gr. and 144.2 gr.) I can see that some lead is missing. But yet with all these flaws these rounds had the best expansion if you measure petal tip to petal tip, and some of the best penetration. I thought that my chrono was off until I started testing with a 3 1/2" Kahr K9, but that's another test.
I really want to like this round but I don't know if the narrow petals with the really sharp tips that do draw blood really do anything in the wound channel.They have the least felt recoil so far.

Next up is an oldie called Winchester (black talon) Ranger STX Controlled Expansion RA9STX. The expansion is really controlled. It didn't make an attempt to open at all, all the way through the wet pack. There were only two neat round holes through and through. We'll see if they do better out of a K9 just for grins. This was the kind of stuff thet gave the 147's a bad reputation.

So here are my final test results.

HIGHEST VEL.
Fed. 124 Tac 1059.6 fps
Fed. 124 HST 1059.3 fps
Fed. 124 HST 1057.9 fps
Fed. 124 Tac 1050.9 fps
Fed. 124 Tac 1042.0 fps
Fed. 147 HST 929.9 fps
Fed. 147 HST 927.5 fps
Win. 147 SXT 863.5 fps
Win. 147 RA9T 860.3 fps
Win. 147 SXT 852.0 fps
Win. 147 RA9T 811.5 fps

DEEPEST PEN.
Fed. 124 HST 9 3/8"
Win. 147 RA9T 8 7/8"
Win. 147 RA9T 8 5/8"
Fed. 147 HST 8 9/16"
Fed. 147 HST 8 1/2"
Fed. 124 HST 8 1/2"
Fed. 124 Tac 8 5/16"

WIDEST DIA.
Win. 147 RA9T .698"
Win. 147 RA9T .676"
Fed 124 Tac .650"
Fed. 147 HST .624"
Fed. 147 HST .599"
Fed. 124 HST .537"
Fed. 147 HST .519"

The next tests will be this same ammo out of a Kahr K9

OK EVERYBODY CAN WAKE UP NOW!

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/PM9%20Tests/PM9-Fed124HSTStandardPressure519lab.jpg


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/PM9%20Tests/PM9-Fed124HSTStandardPressure537lab.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/PM9%20Tests/0003PM9-Fed124HSTStandardPressurelabeled.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/PM9%20Tests/04PM9-Fed124Tactical650labeled.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/jgriders/Kahr%20Ammo%20Tests/PM9%20Tests/05PM9-Fed124Tactical.jpg

[MikeG]

Thanks jg for doing and posting all of that. I now have 100 rounds of 147 gr hst on the way. If my pm9 likes them they will probably take over as my carry round. Once again, thanks for doing the hard work for the rest of us

[Infidel proud]

Its really nice to see someone testing ammo through the types of pistols we are carrying, seems like every time I look for an ammo test online they are using 4 inch barrels which changes the whole dynamic and performance of the round...

Anyway, thanks for the useful info!