CCW + alcohol

[redbeardmcg]

Before I begin, I understand completely that guns + alcohol do not mix well. As you read this post, keep in mind that I am not at any point talking about (or considering) carrying above the legal limit, or even approaching it.

Here in MA there is no law or statute that explicitly prohibits carrying in a bar, or restaurant where alcohol is served. A few days ago I ventured into Lowell to grab some pho at a vietnamese place that my s/o and I frequent. If you know Lowell, you understand my decision to carry that day. As I was devouring my bowl of pho (with a cold Sam Adams) the thought occurred to me that I was consuming alcohol while carrying a concealed gun. I had 2 beers in the hour that we spent there.

Now here are the two scenarios:

Scenario 1: While walking back to my truck (this is at night), an unsavory character armed with a knife or gun makes an attempt at me or my woman. I draw, aim, and fire until the threat has stopped moving. The police arrive, I explain that I was attacked and point out the BGs weapon, and declare to the officer that I am carrying (and legally licensed). He smells the beer on my breath. What happens here? Am I cuffed and stuffed? Does he ask me to take a PBT and disregard so long as I am < .08 and not exhibiting any signs of being intoxicated?

Scenario 2: Same as above, only the BG is unarmed. A fistfight ensues, I get my ass kicked but get in a few good blows that convince the BG that I'm not worth his time and he takes off. The police arrive, I declare that I'm carrying concealed (and legally licensed), and I tell the story. I haven't fired my gun, but the officer smells alcohol on my breath... The same questions posed in scenario 1 apply here.

I think some of you might say: "simple, don't drink while carrying". Consider this point already taken, my primary objective here is to understand what may happen in a situation where I have had a few drinks (one or two in a one hour minimum), but am not intoxicated, and get into some form of altercation.

If you read this entire post, thanks! This has been on my mind a lot lately. I don't carry into a bar, especially if I know outright that I'm not driving and will be drinking more than just a few. That being said, you never know when someone will offer you a cold one and you are carrying.

-Ryan

[redbeardmcg]

I should also add that having those two beers was unintentional. At minimum I unload my gun and LOCK it in a box in my truck if I am having even a single beer. If I am carrying, I always avoid alcohol.

[tv_racin_fan]

Everyone is different on the sisue I believe. I personally am not against having a beer or two or a couple of mixed drinks while I carry. THO normally what I do is leave the handgun in the van or give it to my son to carry while I am drinking. The other night I abstained from drinking but the wife had two bloody mary.

[Thunder71]

That's why I stopped drinking 99% of the time. If I plan on having a drink, the gun stays home, I don't care for that idea so I just choose not to drink.

In Minnesota the legal limit is .04 - at that level, what's the point? I agree with the law and don't have any problems with that at all as it gives you 'some' buffer, such as taking some cold medicine or using mouthwash, I guess. :)

In your scenario, it wouldn't be a problem for me as I'd be stone sober if I was carrying. If something should happen, alcohol is the last thing I want to worry about - it's not that important, period.

That said, my wife enjoys some wine or a few beers when we go out (she's not interested in carrying whatsoever), so on top of my priorities with carrying, I believe it's my responsibility to remain sober in order to drive.

[Scoundrel]

I should also add that having those two beers was unintentional.

How is it possible to unintentionally have two beers? I'm not hacking on you here, I think I just misunderstand what you are saying.

Regarding alcohol and firearms, regardless of legal limits and body weight and things like this, I want to point this out: Alcohol affects judgement, right from the first sip. How much it affects judgement is based on many factors including tolerance to alcohol, how much is consumed in what period of time, etc. I rarely drink. Almost never, in fact. When I do, a VERY small amount of alcohol makes me very fuzzy around the edges. Like 1/4 of a beer. I think I'm slightly allergic to it. I believe that I would be "impaired" at WELL below the legal limit.

So everyone's different and it's difficult to impose a standard on that.

Regarding your scenarios: I think the best answer to this question is going to be "That depends on the officer who responds." It will depend on his overall attitudes and temperament, what kind of mood he is in, his knowledge of the law and his personal belief about the validity of the law, etc.

Sorry for the non-answer, but I don't think this question can be definitively answered.


Oh, and to make up for my non-answer, I present for you a NSFW story which, on page 4, illustrates my point about whether the officer agrees with the law, although in this case he didn't push the issue.

http://thegloss.com/beauty/sunday-in-the-park-with-boobs
There are pictures...
:hippie:

[HDoc]

Does Mass have a "must announce" or a must admit on question CC law?
If there's no must announce, then you are giving too much info and might just wind up inflaming the situation.
You think any LEO can smell two Sam Adams over the garlic and scallions in Pho? If they can find another Vietnamese place.

[Longitude Zero]

Even here in one of the most pro gun states in the country, Oklahoma, alcohol and weapons DO NOT MIX. It both scenarios your chances of immediate arrest are very high.

Your chances of success in the court on the criminal and civil sides of the blotter is very low.

[redbeardmcg]

Haha, Scoundrel, though it's somewhat a stretch to connect the two dots I did enjoy reading the article [looking at the pictures]. And you are correct, it is not possible to "unintentionally" have two beers. What I meant to say is that it was oversight, not unintentional.

I enjoy having a beer with dinner; not a six pack, but a beer or two. It's become a natural thing to do, and though I was aware I was carrying (as I always am, else it would be a bad idea to carry) I've become so accustomed to paying attention to ".08" that nothing about what I was doing felt illegal. It was at that point that I realized I really needed to do my homework before having so much as a single beer when carrying.

I think you are spot on with adding in the "human" element. Law enforcement officers are not walking dictionaries and do not know every single law by heart. That being said, if I did have to defend myself with lethal force the last thing I would want to worry about was whether or not that beer I had with dinner (or scotch if it's a nice steak) would land me in jail or take away my right to carry for life.

Thunder71, I agree abstaining from alcohol is absolutely the best approach. I suppose what I'm trying to do here is determine whether or not simply having a beer while carrying makes me an instant criminal. I read through MGL (mass general law) until I was blue in the face, but still do not have a clear understanding of this. How is "internal posession" qualified? Does your judgement have to be impaired for it to be considered an issue?

[redbeardmcg]

HDoc: MA is not a must announce state. The state of Massachusetts is infuriatingly bizarre in regards to its gun laws.

On one hand, you cannot own a gun with > 10rd capacity, all guns sold in MA must have a MA approved loaded chamber indicator and thumb safety, and obtaining a class-A unrestricted LTC requires time, money, and months of waiting.

OTOH, MA honors the castle doctrine, you do not have to attempt retreat if you are "lawfully residing in a dwelling", you can carry in bars, you do not have to declare when pulled over, you do not have to carry openly while driving, and you can buy any gun you want so long as it was already in the state of MA prior to 1998.

I'll never understand some things about this state, but I am in the technology sector -- there are jobs here in my field, and I'd rather be in New England than California!

[knkali]

Pho....I love that stuff.

[Bawanna]

I think we should discuss Scotch (and a NICE steak).

I think impairment is the key word in the previous discussion. I'm trying to be good and not jack any threads or do anything to make people hate me.

If you are impaired to the point an officer feels a need for a PBT (the blow in the tube thingy) your impaired.

Everything scoundrel said applies. I'd forget the 08 rule or 04 or whatever it was and focus on the impaired phrase.
Like Scoundrel, I don't drink very often, I want to and I'd really like to right now, scotch and a nice steak would be good right this very minute but I digress. Like Scoundrel it doesn't take much to get me fuzzy.
A big guy that drinks a couple beers every day might take alot more to be "impaired".
We got big signs all over last couple years that say Buzzed Driving in Drunk Driving. If you feel a little Buzz (you can substitute the word Fuzzy) your impaired.
People vary immensely in their actions while impaired too. Some are pretty normal, just a bit slow, others turn into mall ninjas and want to fight everyone they see after a beer or two so there's tons of variables.
I think just the fact that you've thought about it make you ok. Lock your gun up when your gonna drink. If you slip and have one or two I'd not get ulcers over it. Do the right thing and no worries.
I like a good T bone with some good scotch myself. Lots of T bone and just a little scotch. Hmmm perfect.

[CJB]

There are many responsibilities in life, and they don't have to be either/or scenarios. I always carry, rarely drink, even rarer to an excess. But I always carry. Always.

I have car keys in my pocket, I choose not to drive when I consume adult beverages. You really need to go in to situations knowing what you'll do before hand, rather than make them up as you go. The pistol is for last ditch, I know that... it stays in my pocket, alcohol or no-alcohol.

[Tinman507]

There are many responsibilities in life, and they don't have to be either/or scenarios. I always carry, rarely drink, even rarer to an excess. But I always carry. Always.

I have car keys in my pocket, I choose not to drive when I consume adult beverages. You really need to go in to situations knowing what you'll do before hand, rather than make them up as you go. The pistol is for last ditch, I know that... it stays in my pocket, alcohol or no-alcohol.

+1 ^ what he said

[Bill K]

I allow myself one drink. Matter of fact my Dr. recommends a glass of red wine with dinner each day.

Reading these posts I'm thinking now to not have that one glass of wine outside the home. I can go out to dinner, drink something non-alcoholic and have the glass of wine when I get home.

However if you think a drink or two messes you up wait until that adrenaline dump in a SD situation; all kinds of weird things happen to your body and mind.

[Bayou]

If it's not illegal for you to be in possession of a firearm after having consumed alcohol, what are you going to be arrested for, particularly in the second scenario? Everything else being as you stated, you were clear to defend yourself whether alcohol was involved or not. But then, I like to think that I use common sense when I'm working those sorts of things. Not saying there's no way you'd get arrested, but when presented with the totality of circumstances, I think it would be labeled a justified shooting.

We had one of our guys come home after having been out. He saw a robbery in progress on his street. He announced and exchanged gunfire with the bad guys. He had been drinking, but wasn't impaired. No big deal was made of it. He didn't hit any of the bad guys, but still.

HOWEVER, expect to really get beaten up in civil court.

[lowroad]

It is illegal to be in possesion of a firearm here in New Mexico if you have consumed alcohol. ANY amount of alcohol. Don't ask me how I know this.

[wyntrout]

I've said many times that I'm thankful that Florida doesn't prohibit me from CCW and dining and having a few medicinal glasses of red wine... over the course of an hour or so. Even drunk, I would have the right of self-defense, but I had better be 100% in the right. I'm sure that a BAT would be taken and used in any legal proceedings. Thankfully, we no longer have to chug or leave a half-bottle of wine behind... with the "Merlot To Go Law".:)

Again, I always recall The Luby's Massacre and I try to get the best vantage point for protecting myself and whomever's with me. Stuff happens... robberies, gang shootings, disgruntled employees, and all kinds of other things where sitting there like a sacrificial sheeple waiting for my turn is not a choice that I would make... and I will never have to regret leaving my protection behind, should a life-or-death situation arise.

Wynn:)

[ptoemmes]

Wife and I went to a Carrabbas last Sunday evening - and waited and waited. A group of four with a maybe 50 something guy and older lady got tired of waiting on what they though was their table. The seated party admittedly was milking it after paying the check so the older lady got impatient, walked up to them, and said something.

Well, the fit just about hit the san as a seated guy - also 50 something - got nose-to-nose with the waiting guy. What little testosterone there was left was flowing.

Manager finally intervened and as the seated party left the guy was bleeding from his thumb - unclear how/why - and mumbled something to the hostess about getting his biker friends and burning the place down.

Well...we still had a nice dinner. Guy never came back with or without biker friends.

Yes - I was armed and I just choose not to drink alcohol. I went over my lifetime allotment years ago.

Pete

[pitbull1022]

I stopped drinking 6 years sgo. So not a problem. Important thing is you learnt a lesson on your own.

[WMD]

HDoc: MA is not a must announce state. The state of Massachusetts is infuriatingly bizarre in regards to its gun laws.

On one hand, you cannot own a gun with > 10rd capacity, all guns sold in MA must have a MA approved loaded chamber indicator and thumb safety, and obtaining a class-A unrestricted LTC requires time, money, and months of waiting.

OTOH, MA honors the castle doctrine, you do not have to attempt retreat if you are "lawfully residing in a dwelling", you can carry in bars, you do not have to declare when pulled over, you do not have to carry openly while driving, and you can buy any gun you want so long as it was already in the state of MA prior to 1998.

I'll never understand some things about this state, but I am in the technology sector -- there are jobs here in my field, and I'd rather be in New England than California!

redbeardmcg,

I may be needing MA law some education here. It was my understanding that it was ilegal to carry weapons in a bar. Also, I was under the notion that MA did NOT honor the castle doctrine. Again, I may have this screwed up. I am defining castle dosctine as the right to protect yourself in your home as opposed to fleeing. I thought the current law read in MA, if someone breaks in to your house, you are supposed to flee. You are not supposed to shoot them unless it can be substantialy proven you could NOT flee from the premisis.

Am I mistaken?

[redbeardmcg]

@WMD: I'm happy to report that we are both correct in some degree... MA is only recently a castle / stand your ground state. I don't know how long ago this changed, but it is fairly recent. See this link for the actual MGL (Mass General Law) statement:

Part IV - Title II - Chapter 278


Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.

[redbeardmcg]

Here's the promised link (http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleII/Chapter278/Section8a)

[Barth]

Here in Florida you're not supposed to belly up to the bar while carrying.
But you can have a beer or glass of wine with your meal at a table
(as long as that area doesn't make 50% of it's revenue from alcohol - or something like that).
I've always struggled with drinking and carrying at all - for obvious reasons.

Now that I'm 55 it seems that alcohol sucks my energy.
And ability to recover from my daily pumping iron and cardio regiment.
Also I got tired of fighting my weight.
I like having six pack abs, rather than a 6 pack belly.

So I stopped drinking entirely about 1.5 years ago.
I'm glad I did.

Already had my fun, if you can call it that.

[Longitude Zero]

In OK if you are CCW and have any amount of measureable alcohol in your blood you are in deep poopoo if you are involved in a shooting.

If you have ANY drugs in your system at all, illegal or prescription, your justifiable shooting just became criminal with a life sentence.

[Scoundrel]

If you have ANY drugs in your system at all, illegal or prescription, your justifiable shooting just became criminal with a life sentence.

That seems a bit harsh. Even blood pressure medicine, or heartburn stuff? I'd have to see the law on that one before I believed it.

[Longitude Zero]

Oh my bad this time, with normal high blood pressure meds, cardiac meds, diabetic meds, etc you would be okay. Any non-narcotic meds you will be okay

If you have any Schedule 2, 3, 4 meds or ANY/ALL narcotics, pain killers, mooder alterants, psychiatric meds aka Haldol/Melaril/Elavil etc you are toast. ALL meds for ANY psychiatrict diagnosis and you are toast.

Sorry for the confusion.

In OK as a CCW applicant you are checked thru the State of OK Pharmacy Narcotics Database. If your name shows up as a consumer of narcotics for ANY and ALL reasons or any psychotropic meds your application is denied and you may not reapply for either 3 or 5 years.

[Scoundrel]

Ah, that makes more sense. Drugs, even prescription ones, that are known to mess up your judgement.

Not that laws have any requirement to make sense.
http://www.brandeslaw.com/Lighter/lawsob.htm

[Longitude Zero]

Ah, that makes more sense. Drugs, even prescription ones, that are known to mess up your judgement.

Yes sir, those.

[apheod]

yeah OK has some pretty ridiculous laws and mandatory sentences. i'd never live there, personally. KS gun laws aren't too bad, and seem to get slightly better every year. you can carry in a bar, and even drink as long as you're under .08, although if you're under .08 it's "at the officer's discretion." basically, if you're acting drunk and blowing .02, you're CUI.

personally, i'm always armed. after i get home from work i have a beer, every day. couple hours later i usually have another with dinner, sometimes i have a third later in the evening. on the weekends, it's still only 2-3 tops a day. i haven't been to a bar in years, and only eat out a few times a year. when i do, i have one or two beers or a long island iced tea with the meal, but still act the same as i do sober. i can't recall the last time i would have considered myself drunk, it's been at least 5 years. not really a pleasurable feeling for me, dizzy, stumbling, tired, acting like an idiot, maybe puking... don't see why people enjoy that.

i do abstain completely if i'm going to be doing any shooting that day, but have no doubt i could still be completely competent with a weapon after a beer.

[pitandkahr]

There are many responsibilities in life, and they don't have to be either/or scenarios. I always carry, rarely drink, even rarer to an excess. But I always carry. Always.

I have car keys in my pocket, I choose not to drive when I consume adult beverages. You really need to go in to situations knowing what you'll do before hand, rather than make them up as you go. The pistol is for last ditch, I know that... it stays in my pocket, alcohol or no-alcohol.

x2 GREAT WAY to put it!! I just wish all who CCW viewed this. Since being in the midwest I've seen more people show off their gun in not appropriate situations under the influence of alcohol (or around). Most were younger gentlemen in the midst of females or in a group of guys. They didn't brandish their gun, but they lifted their shirts to show off what they had.

[Longitude Zero]

They didn't brandish their gun, but they lifted their shirts to show off what they had.

In many states that could be an arrestable offense. At th every least if they were reported to the CCW authtrities they could and probably should see action taken against them.

[pitandkahr]

In many states that could be an arrestable offense. At th every least if they were reported to the CCW authtrities they could and probably should see action taken against them.

Very true, but the big question is how do you address that in a group of testosterone knuckleheads under some sort of influence of alcohol in the midst of women they want to engage in carnal activities...LOL...Usually I'm with my kids or family and just get them out of the place ASAP and try not to stink eye them too much...

[Longitude Zero]

I have been known to call the boy & girls in blue as I am walking to my car. I can call in my report later.

[drillnow]

Not sure about your state but here in N.C. if you are carrying, you need to have ZERO booze in your system. I do drink some and have no problem with that law.

[jzorn]

In wisconsin, you cant be under the influence. I just never drink anymore. It's safer that way.

[MO_Soldier]

This is how Missouri defines "Intoxicated" - substantially impaired mental or physical capacity resulting from introduction of any substance into the body.

This is Missouri's law as it pertains to this discussion:


"Has a firearm or projectile weapon readily capable of lethal use on his or her person, while he or she is intoxicated,and handles or otherwise uses such firearm or projectile weapon in either a negligent or unlawful manner or discharges such firearm or projectile weapon unless acting in self-defense"

Make note of important language; "substantially impaired, "has firearm, AND handles/uses firearm...in a negligent or unlawful manner..."

I read that as:
1)Know my limit and don't become too impaired. Whether that is half a beer or half a keg, depends on the person. (Just a metaphor, please don't get too literal with me here)
2) I only break the law if I carry AND commit negligence or break a law, such as brandishing.

As for my opinion? I don't break laws. I educate myself of them so that like my gun, I can use them as my protection. I also know that I'm not some complete ******* EVER, let alone if I have 2 beers. Take that as you will.

BTW, I am a young CCW holder. I've been drinking for about 36 Moons now. I have never been apt to give up my concealment for any reason. It's "concealed" for MANY reasons!

[Armybrat]

http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w349/ScoPro/2011football020.jpg

[yote]

If you are involved in a shooting while under the influence of alcohol, you will most likely be arrested and tried for negligent homicide or manslaughter.

You will have to convince a jury that you were not impaired and the shooting was not reckless or negligent.

Stating that you were knowingly carrying a firearm and did not realize you were drinking alcohol would not go over well with a jury.

[tv_racin_fan]

http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w349/ScoPro/2011football020.jpg

That is a very nice looking meal and place setting.

[pitandkahr]

http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w349/ScoPro/2011football020.jpg

That's a DAMN good looking meal there!!!