.380 or 9mm?

[Ljutic]

Being a pocket pistol guy, I've always wondered what the real terminal performance differences were between a 380 and 9mm when shot from the typical mouse gun length barrels. I didn't see much info available online so I decided to start my own testing program. I ended up using the DB380 and DB9 as my test guns due to their very similar barrel lengths. There is only a .2" difference between the 380 and 9mm. I could have used the PM9 and P380, but with a .5" difference in barrel length it introduced another variable I was trying to control.

I'm open to rerunning a test using the Kahrs if you guys have any interest. I know Jocko would like to see the Corbon DPX tested this way. :D

So far, I've done three head to head tests. Each lives on it's own blog entry so feel free to click through on any that are of interest to you.

Hornady Critical Defense:
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/another-realistic-9mm-vs-380-acp-test.html

Federal Hydra-Shok:
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/another-realistic-380-acp-vs-9mm-test.html

Speer Gold Dot:
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/realistic-380-acp-vs-9mm-test-with.html

[josp]

As always, excellent information.

[jocko]

380 ammo has come a ong waya than 25 years ago, no doubt about that, another reason why so many 380 models are being offered today. It certainly is much better than the 32. I would not choose it over a sub 9mm like what kahr offers and a few others but it is no slouch round today either. Nice work Ljutic..

[CrazyLarry]

The Speer GDHP and Hornady FTX 9mm certainly appear to have penetrated deeper and expanded slightly better than the comparable 380 from the same manufacturer.

I would then argue, is there a difference in "follow up shot" that would make one handgun a better choice over the other based on caliber? Some small 380s are more "painful" than the next size larger handgun chambered in 9mm.

Or in the case of a Kahr, a P380 could be more recoil than the MK9 which is 2x as heavy.

[OldLincoln]

One thing I keep coming back to is the non-technical side of the equation. Compare the 38 Special, 9mm and 45 in the Hickok45 video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MPSDjJQIv4). I currently carry a 9mm mostly IWB and will move up to a 45 when my planets align.

[jocko]

The Speer GDHP and Hornady FTX 9mm certainly appear to have penetrated deeper and expanded slightly better than the comparable 380 from the same manufacturer.

I would then argue, is there a difference in "follow up shot" that would make one handgun a better choice over the other based on caliber? Some small 380s are more "painful" than the next size larger handgun chambered in 9mm.

Or in the case of a Kahr, a P380 could be more recoil than the MK9 which is 2x as heavy.

two very good points.

For me I would not pocket carry an MK series kahr with the sole thought that my follw up shot willbe better. I think I would be able toovber come that part with my P380 even. I really do shoot it good at 5 yards, surprises me to hell I never shot a 380 yet that was as compforatble as my PM9 that is for sure. I just have zero issues carrying my P9 where ever I go, so my P380 sits 98% of the time "loaded" but no where to go


I can't speak from experience but I really don't think a BG wants any part of any person who is carrying a gun, be it a 32, 380, 9 or what ever. He just doesn't as there are to many other easy victims out there to pray on. Just sayin

[Bill K]

Thank you so much. I love watching and learning from ballistic tests and yours are so very well done. I was particularly interested in what you've posted because I pocket carry both .380 (p3at) and a 9mm (PM9). Also, I load CD in my .380 winter time and then switch out to GD come warmer weather. I've been concerned about ballistics performance with HP out of a .380 going through heavy winter clothing which is why I carried CD last winter and hard cast truncated cone previous winters. Your tests suggest I'd be good to go with either GD or CD all year long.

I know I could calculate foot pounds from your stats but it would really have been nice if you provided that information. Energy dumped into the target, along with penetration and expansion, is in my opinion a very important stat to consider when selecting a SD caliber gun and what particular ammo in that caliber to carry.

Thanks again... Three thumbs up!

[kerby9mm]

two very good points.

For me I would not pocket carry an MK series kahr with the sole thought that my follw up shot willbe better. I think I would be able toovber come that part with my P380 even. I really do shoot it good at 5 yards, surprises me to hell I never shot a 380 yet that was as compforatble as my PM9 that is for sure. I just have zero issues carrying my P9 where ever I go, so my P380 sits 98% of the time "loaded" but no where to go


I can't speak from experience but I really don't think a BG wants any part of any person who is carrying a gun, be it a 32, 380, 9 or what ever. He just doesn't as there are to many other easy victims out there to pray on. Just sayin

When I shoot my mk40 first then go to my mk9 and p238 the latter 2 feel like 22's. As to the 380 the p238 is very comfortable to shoot.

[Dmitri]

Ljutic,

Thank you very much; great (and well-presented) info as usual.

I have an unrelated question: how come one of them actually gained weight? :)

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2620/4cae0b3a.jpg

Is it just a measurement/equipment error, or...?
The only explanation I can come up with is that the original weight was 115.5 or so, instead of the specified 115?

Just curious...

Thanks

[Ljutic]

I know I could calculate foot pounds from your stats but it would really have been nice if you provided that information. Energy dumped into the target, along with penetration and expansion, is in my opinion a very important stat to consider when selecting a SD caliber gun and what particular ammo in that caliber to carry.

Thanks again... Three thumbs up!

Hey Bill. When I did my big 380 test last summer all I reported was velocity and calculated energy. There were a bunch of folks that told me that the calculated energy number was meaningless and terminal performance was all that mattered. So that sent me down the terminal ballistics path and you are right that I've stopped reporting calculated energy. It won't be a big deal to add that back in on the stat sheet with the recovered bullets. Thanks for reminding me that some folks do care about that stat.

I will say the block jumps more when you smack it with a 9mm instead of a 380. I think the final weight of each block is about 16 lbs.

[Ljutic]

Ljutic,

Thank you very much; great (and well-presented) info as usual.

I have an unrelated question: how come one of them actually gained weight? :)


Is it just a measurement/equipment error, or...?
The only explanation I can come up with is that the original weight was 115.5 or so, instead of the specified 115?

Just curious...

Thanks

Error in measurement? From Me? Are you serious??????? :p

I measured it several times as I hate when things don't add up correctly. It was probably due to a bullet that started out over weight. There's not really any way to tell the starting weight without pulling the bullet and reloading it, which opens up way too many other variables.

I also wash and dry each bullet before weighing. SIM-TEST is water soluble so it washes away. I did notice the 380 hydra shok post had trapped a denim thread when it bent over that didn't wash away so I just left it there for the weigh in.

Good question!

[Ljutic]

Thank you so much. I love watching and learning from ballistic tests and yours are so very well done. I was particularly interested in what you've posted because I pocket carry both .380 (p3at) and a 9mm (PM9). Also, I load CD in my .380 winter time and then switch out to GD come warmer weather. I've been concerned about ballistics performance with HP out of a .380 going through heavy winter clothing which is why I carried CD last winter and hard cast truncated cone previous winters. Your tests suggest I'd be good to go with either GD or CD all year long.

I know I could calculate foot pounds from your stats but it would really have been nice if you provided that information. Energy dumped into the target, along with penetration and expansion, is in my opinion a very important stat to consider when selecting a SD caliber gun and what particular ammo in that caliber to carry.

Thanks again... Three thumbs up!


Data sheet from my latest test of ammo. I went back to .32 at reader request, but did add the calculated ft/lbs to the recap sheet. Thanks for the suggestion.

The full article is here if anyone is interested. http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/32-acp-jhp-shoot-out.html


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/BDSBruce/Blog%20Photos/929f1d69.jpg

[Deano]

Great work. Thanks for posting these results. I'm curious. I carry Federal HST which I was under the impression is a different (and better) bullet than Federal Hydra Shock. Have you tested the HST? The Hydra shock 9mm didn't seem to perform very well in your test.

[Yogi 117]

Great work. Thanks for posting these results. I'm curious. I carry Federal HST which I was under the impression is a different (and better) bullet than Federal Hydra Shock. Have you tested the HST? The Hydra shock 9mm didn't seem to perform very well in your test.
Here ya go Deano, the Federal HST performed quite well. I love his tests comparing the different rounds. Happy Reading. :)

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/ballistics-testing-federal-premium-hst.html

[wyntrout]

The bullet is usually not weighed before being fired and the listed weight could have a tiny variation. There are 7,000 grains in a pound and most scales don't have ZERO variation with respect to accuracy! 0.4 grains could be a lot when working with near maximum magnum-type loads for a pistol, but for lead/copper bullets... it's not very much and within the accuracy variation of the scale, I'm sure!

Then, again, sometimes there's a bit of gel or denim or other test medium mixed inside the expanded bullet!

Wynn:)

[Ljutic]

Yogi to the rescue!!! Thanks brother.

You don't need to follow my lead, but I ordered some extra .380 Hydra Shoks and 124 grain HST +P ahead of the possible election year jitters. For 9mm that run on standard pressure only, I'm happy with anything 124 grains or less that I've tested. 147's have not done well in short barrels, but I've only tested a very few in this weight.

[DKD]

The 9mm will win hands down over any 380 ACP even when compared to a short barreled 3" pistol in 9mm. The 9mm generally has double the foot pounds of muzzle enegry. The diameter of the slud may be the same but don't forget the additional mass of the heavier slug traveling a bit faster really make a large difference in the statistics.

[Dmitri]

...yes absolutely, and .45 will win hands-down over 9, every time, and a high-power rifle will blow them all out of the water, every time... It's all about compromises, no? It's always about the ratio between some minimum level of damage vs. minimum size/weight that one would be comfortable actually carrying around. Otherwise people would be just walking around with AR15s and we wouldn't have these arguments. :)

To me, all the numbers aside, I just look at a pic like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/BDSBruce/Blog%20Photos/b4d77df4.jpg
and ask myself this question: is the difference between the round on the right penetrating 10 inches into my body, and the round on the left penetrating 12.25 inches into my body, worth worrying about? The answer, to me, is "no, it really isn't". The .380 on the right, yes being smaller than the 9 on the left and yes penetrating a little less, is STILL going to cause very comparable amount of damage to the tissue; the differences aren't really substantial enough, at all. Now, if you compare 9 and .22, then sure. But 9 and .380? Not so much.

Man, if there was a .50 caliber pistol the size and weight of the P380 with the same amount of recoil, I'd be the first in line to order one. But so far that's a physical impossibility. Who knows, maybe in a decade or so they'll come up with something? :cool:


P.S. This is from Hornady website, i.e. both samples/reports are from the same source/brand:

9mm 115gr FTX Critical Defense (link (http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detailccdc.html?id=129&sID=110&pID=1)):
http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/uploads/9MM-FTX-Gelatin.jpg

vs.

380 Auto 90gr FTX Critical Defense (link (http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail1c67.html?id=129&sID=107&pID=1)):
http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/uploads/380-Auto-FTX-Gelatin.jpg

There's really not that much difference.

[bonjorno2]

def want to see the kahrs

[Yogi 117]

Yogi to the rescue!!! Thanks brother.

You don't need to follow my lead, but I ordered some extra .380 Hydra Shoks and 124 grain HST +P ahead of the possible election year jitters. For 9mm that run on standard pressure only, I'm happy with anything 124 grains or less that I've tested. 147's have not done well in short barrels, but I've only tested a very few in this weight.
Sorry my friend, didn't mean to ruin your thunder. I'm kind of like a bad penny sometimes, but heck, I love your testing results. Keep up the good work, look forward to the next test! :)

[ParabellumJ]

Very nice work. If given a choice I would take 9mm every time. However, if I were on the wrong end of that barrel I would not want to get hit with either, or a .22 for that matter. I think both will do their job, but the 9mm probably a bit better. Overall there is not a ton of difference, but any advantage I can get I will take. I would definitely not go below a .380 for defensive carry. Of course we could all just carry .45 acp and not have to consider either.

[ZardozCZ]

I'm like a total newb to center fire handguns, and recently let a guy at the range shoot my cm9. He said it was less snappy than his LCP. He let me shoot it and it did jump more, had no sites to work with in the dusk (unlike Kahr's) and just wasn't as nice to shoot as the CM9. I feel I made the right choice in spending more for a good 9mm. I'll make it up on ammo alone if not in other ways.

Probably all been said before, but wanted to join the chorus.

[jocko]

lcp much smaller, much lighter, not gonna feel like your cmp which really is a pleasure to shoot as u well know. the lcp if OK for what it is, a 380 that will go bang when needed but certinly not as fun gun to shoot alot, where as the cm9 certainly is..

[Dmitri]

I would definitely not go below a .380 for defensive carry.

Agreed!

[ParabellumJ]

lcp much smaller, much lighter, not gonna feel like your cmp which really is a pleasure to shoot as u well know. the lcp if OK for what it is, a 380 that will go bang when needed but certinly not as fun gun to shoot alot, where as the cm9 certainly is..

I agree, most of the 380's aren't much fun to shoot because of the size/weight. Even the PPK with its heavier weight isn't a range gun, and that slide sure does bite! While I have never shot the P380, I do think because of the usable sights as compared to a lot of its competition make it the pick of the 380 pocket autos.

[JFootin]

With CW45s going for well under $400 online, for such a high quality weapon and a sweet shooter, it's hard to resist taking that easy step into the world of flying ashtrays! :tongue:

[sas PM9]

Ljutic:

Thank you for your efforts in these tests. Very interesting.
You have given me a newfound respect for the 380.

-steve

[Ljutic]

I have yet to figure out a way to test this, but.......all this really tells us is if a bullet will or will not expand at a velocity after penetrating through 2 layers of denim and into gel. In reality there's a whole bunch of other stuff in critters that can really change the penetration depth of any cartridge.

When I started testing I went in with the mindset that "If I'm paying for premium expanding hollowpoints, then by golly I want to know I get a hollow point that expands from MY barrel." After looking at several different varieties, I can now make an informed decision on why I think brand X is better than brand Y for my needs. If others can make a more informed decision by using some of my results in their personal choices, then it's mission accomplished for me.

Glad you guys like it. I knew 9mm was better than 380, but I never knew HOW MUCH better until running them head to head.

PS....I'm not getting rid of my P380 because it's the sweetest shooting Double/Striker fired 380 ever.

[jocko]

well IMO since the kel tek 9's came on board alot of eyars back and they sold like hotcakes at waffle house, THE AMMO MAKERS have also gotton off their asses and made the 380 a super round. 15 years ago 380 ammo sucked, very few options back then, including theguns to, let alone good defense gun. now ever gun maker makes a pocket 380 and damn near any ammo maker worth his salt has some good 380 ammo to. It ain't never gonna be a big boy like the 9's but if fills a niche for alot of 9mm carriers to. Hell of a great back up gun to ur master carry peace ./ Juse sayin

[flieger67]

...154 years ago 380 ammo sucked...

It didn't "suck", it didn't even exist 154 years ago... :D



Just having some fun with your statement, jocko. ;)

[jocko]

It didn't "suck", it didn't even exist 154 years ago... :D



Just having some fun with your statement, jocko. ;)

but for ur information I was there 154 years ago and seen a box of 380muslamic ammo. No sh!t, darn truth so help me by the book of Koran!!:popcorn:

[flieger67]

but for ur information I was there 154 years ago and seen a box of 380muslamic ammo. No sh!t, darn truth so help me by the book of Koran!!:popcorn:

My apologies then. :D

[wyntrout]

I think that the BB +P Gold Dot compares favorably with the .38 special Speer Gold Dots... without looking, maybe the +P in 125-grain... velocity and energy-wise, plus more rounds in the P380 and easier to reload. I think that Ballistics by the Inch showed that.

Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

The Speer Gold Dot Personal Protection - 38 Special +P has a muzzle velocity of 945 fps versus 1053 fps for the Buffalo Bore +P Gold Dot from the Kahr P380 2.5" barrel, and the muzzle energy is 248 ft-lbs for the .38 versus about 245 ft-lbs for the BB +P GD from the Kahr.

I don't feel under armed with the P380 loaded with BB +P GDHP's.

The tables get corrupted, but you can figure out what's what. The .38 was shot from a 4-inch barrel:

EDIT: I added the Short-Barrel version at the end of this post, which was tested with a 2-inch barrel... giving 860 fps MZ Velocity and 222 ft-lbs mz energy:

Gold Dot Personal Protection - 38 Special +P


http://www.speer-ammo.com/images/Bullets/cartridge/53720.jpg
Part Number Cartridge
Bullet Wt. Bullet Type Box Count Bullet Coefficient 23720 38 Special +P 125 GDHP 20 0.14
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds) Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards 945 891 845 248 220 198
Trajectory if sighted at 25 yards Test Barrel Length in inches 4" Usage 25 yards
50 yards
75 yards
100 yards 0.0 -1.7 -6.1 -13.4 4-V 1 Usage Key: 1 = Personal Protection | 2 = Training | 3 = Hunting

The Kahr P380 is tested with ammo here:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto2.html#RW

and the Muzzle Energy graph:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/mepngs/380auto2010.png

Wynn:)

Edit... I added the short-barrel version of the .38 special... 135-gr +P:


Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection - 38 Special +P

http://www.speer-ammo.com/images/Bullets/cartridge/not_yet.jpg
Part Number Cartridge
Bullet Wt. Bullet Type Box Count Bullet Coefficient 23921 38 Special +P 135 GDHP-SB 20 0.141
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds) Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards 860 818 780 222 200 182
Trajectory if sighted at 25 yards Test Barrel Length in inches 2" Usage 25 yards
50 yards
75 yards
100 yards 0.0 -2.2 -7.6 -16.4 2-V 1 Usage Key: 1 = Personal Protection | 2 = Training | 3 = Hunting

[Icer]

Here's a good video of the .380 Winchester Ranger T-Series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxpHOB132ak


and Winchester PDX1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv7ChS7DurE

[FrankinCA]

For reliability, plethora of SD rounds, more power.

I had a Sig P230. Every once in awhile, it would jam. .380's are more ammo sensitive and need more TLC.

.38 and 9mm is the smallest I would go for SD.

[Barth]

For reliability, plethora of SD rounds, more power.

I had a Sig P230. Every once in awhile, it would jam. .380's are more ammo sensitive and need more TLC.

.38 and 9mm is the smallest I would go for SD.

+1
I'm not very popular around here anyway LOL!

FBI Protocol Testing:
9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 - caliber
Win Ranger +P+ - the name of the load
115@1320 - bullet mass in grains @ muzzle velocity
21.7 mv - bullet momentum in lb*fps
444 E - muzzle energy in ftlbs
BR - what follows is the data for bare gelatin
9.6" inches of penetration
0.53", final expanded diameter of bullet
2.11 cu, approximation of wound volume.
(this does not take into account the expansion profile as a function of depth,
but it should be roughly proportionate to actual wound volume)
CL - what follows is the data for clothed gelatin
same fields as the bare gelatin, as defined above
avg 2.74 - Average wound volume, clothed and bare gelatin
3.89 re - Free Recoil Energy, assuming a 1.88 lb pistol
0.70 - Average would volume per unit Free Recoil Energy.

.380 Win Silvertip-- | 85@ 954, 11.6 mv, 172 E|BR 07.9", 0.58", 2.09cu|CL 09.1", 0.47", 1.58cu|avg 1.83, 1.11 re, 1.65
.380 CCI/Speer GD- | 88@ 914, 11.5 mv, 163 E|BR 11.6", 0.46", 1.92cu|CL 17.2", 0.35", 1.66cu|avg 1.79, 1.09 re, 1.64
.380 CCI/Speer GD- | 90@ 934, 12.0 mv, 174 E|BR 09.3", 0.59", 2.54cu|CL 11.3", 0.49", 2.14cu|avg 2.34, 1.19 re, 1.96
.380 Fed HydraShok | 90@ 971, 12.5 mv, 188 E|BR 06.7", 0.66", 2.29cu|CL 12.0", 0.49", 2.26cu|avg 2.28, 1.29 re, 1.77