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garyb
10-27-2012, 03:25 PM
I have not been reloading all that long. I did some research before I started (as I do with most things) and settled on Hodgdon Longshot because it was said to be "cleaner, consistently accurate and with lower pressure". I have found this to be very true and I am very pleased with this powder.

For my PM4O (40S&W), using 165gr FMJ Precision Delta bullets, Federal Small Pistol primers, c.o.l. approx 1.13": I am using about 5.7 grains of Longshot powder, but up to 6 grains works well too. Hodgdon recommends about 7gr. Most guys are shooting IDPA with light loads that just meet the power rating of 125 which is bullet weight in gr X velocity FPS all divided by 1000. Anything 5 grains or below and the bullets will not cycle properly in my PM40. 5.5 grains cycles with the load stated above, so I increased the powder charge to 5.7 gr. (Note: this is a very small barrel for competition and the lighter loads in this caliber can be a blessing when dealing with the muzzle flip and number of rounds during this type of competition. We are not talking SD rounds which in my opinion should be factory loads only. However, a light competition load in the 40S&W is claimed to cross over into the type of flip felt in standard 9mm rounds. I can not say this for certain and am NOT trying to start a controversy over caliber. Just explaining the benefits of fast recovery during competition....Bla, Bla, Bla...)

Anyway.....If there is anyone else reloading the 40S&W for IDPA I am very interested to hear about the powder are you using and what loads you are using?....even if your not competing in IDPA...voice your experience with powders for the 40S&W. Let's talk powder. Thanks.

garyb
11-03-2012, 10:57 AM
Not a topic of interest. No problem. Thanks.

Bawanna
11-03-2012, 12:02 PM
Apparently not many 40 reloaders. I've never loaded them myself.

Tilos
11-03-2012, 12:23 PM
Not a topic of interest. No problem. Thanks.

I would look elsewhere for that type of info and here's a good place with lots about different types of gun games/loads etc.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=4

;)

Longitude Zero
11-03-2012, 02:01 PM
I used reload for revolvers and bolt action rifles only. I have never been interested in semi-auto reloading.

garyb
11-05-2012, 06:05 AM
I will check out the Mr. Enos site. Thanks.

I almost need to reload for my 40 because of the amount of ammo I use for IDPA and the defensive tactics training I do. I hammer through alot of ammo with this sweet little PM. It is far too expensive to buy the stuff off the shelf and I can customize my loads precisely to this gun (which is a tremendous benefit).

I was hoping to learn from someone else loading for the PM40, but Oh well. Just threw my hook out there hoping for a bite. No problem. Thanks guys.

mr surveyor
11-05-2012, 08:25 AM
I have a set of .45 acp dies on the way myself, to load for my (currently) only 1911. After that gets to be a routine load, I'll be asking about tuning loads to the CW45 that is now on my radar.

getsome
11-05-2012, 01:55 PM
Hi garyb....I load for my PM40 and S&W M&P .40 and I too wanted to try something lighter for target use...I only use one powder for all my pistol rounds .38 .40 .45ACP .44 magnum as it's just easier to use the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method....

When I first started reloading I asked the salesman that sold me the equipment which powder would work for all the above calibers and he advised me to use Universal Clays so thats what I use in everything which may not be the absolute best but it does work well and is cleaner burning than Unique which is an older very popular and similar all around do everything powder...I also like Universal Clays because the correct charge fills about half the cartridge and a double charge overflows so it's real easy to spot a double charge and prevent a Ka-Boom!!!

My Hodgdon manual has a very narrow window for Universal Clays listing a starting load of 5.7 grains and a max load of 6.2 grains...I tried 5.7 which worked in the M&P but sometimes wouldn't cycle the PM40 slide so i settled on a load of 5.9 grains which will work in both guns...

Truthfully .40 is going to be snappy especially in a PM size gun and probably not the best choice for IDPA and most shooters go for 9mm or light .45ACP loads in heavier full size pistols but if .40 is what you have then go for it but realize that there just aren't any soft recoiling loads in this caliber as it is just the nature of the beast...Good luck with your choice and shoot um up in IDPA!!!

MW surveyor
11-05-2012, 05:33 PM
Glad to see that you got some replies. I don't have (nor want) a 40 but do reload for 9, 38, 357 and 45 ACP. Usually use either HP38, Bullseye, or Clays (not universal clays) and sometimes Unique (really rarely).

dkmatthews
11-06-2012, 05:20 AM
I load .40s&w and have developed a good set of loading parameters for my usage. Whether I'm shooting out of a Glock or a Kahr, I use 8.5 grains of Blue Dot powder for both 165 grain and 180 grain Berry's bullets.

garyb
11-06-2012, 08:04 AM
Truthfully .40 is going to be snappy especially in a PM size gun and probably not the best choice for IDPA and most shooters go for 9mm or light .45ACP loads in heavier full size pistols but if .40 is what you have then go for it but realize that there just aren't any soft recoiling loads in this caliber as it is just the nature of the beast...Good luck with your choice and shoot um up in IDPA!!!

Agree Absolutely...but the more I shoot it, the softer it feels and there is a big difference felt in loads. I agree, this PM is not a competitive gun, but it is what I carry and IDPA gives me good practice with gun handling situations. I don't expect to win with it (on the range)and have considered another "gaming gun" even though it would fit in the IDPA criteria. However, doing so would not help my SD with the PM and I do count on winning with it in an SD situation. That is why I put so much time and practice into this PM....it is my sword.

The double charge issue comes up a great deal. I use a powder cop on my Hornady L&L progressive. I watch it carefully and also weigh every 5th round as a check. I guess a double could happen with the light charge I am using if I am not careful, but I make a serious effort to be very conscious about the powder cop and weighing so it remains on the front burner.

Thanks for the input on your powder selections guys. I always like to hear what others are using successfully. Thanks.

TheTman
11-06-2012, 08:29 AM
I used to load .45 and 44 special/magnum. I used HS6 powder that worked well in either load. Not best propellant for either, but would work in all 3. Can't find my notebook of how many grains and all that. It's been a few years. I imagine I used a couple of grains under the max. I know the .44 mag load was close to max on the poweder and was very accurate while not being very punishing to shoot.

AIRret
11-06-2012, 12:56 PM
Glad to see that you got some replies. I don't have (nor want) a 40 but do reload for 9, 38, 357 and 45 ACP. Usually use either HP38, Bullseye, or Clays (not universal clays) and sometimes Unique (really rarely).

Why don't you use the Clays universal?

MW surveyor
11-09-2012, 07:33 AM
Why don't you use the Clays universal?

Don't have any. :D

garyb
11-09-2012, 02:52 PM
Why don't you use the Clays universal?

Do you use it for a 40? What load? How clean is it? Pros and cons? I will have to look it up.

I've only used Longshot because I bought a few pounds of the stuff and it seems be working great. I would like to try a couple of other powders and would love to learn more about what others are using in their 40's. But for now, if something is working for me, I am thinking - why fix it? I'll experiment later with the input I get and the data in the loading books when I run out of what I have and start loading for some other calibers like my wifes 380.

Bongo Boy
11-24-2012, 07:33 PM
Probably not going to get a lot of IDPA reload info here at the Kahr forum, but I've loaded many 1,000s of 40SW for IDPA and in fact shot a few hundred just today.

In my experience many IDPA and USPSA shooters load heavier bullets and faster powders, and the standards are Solo 1000, Clays and Vihtavuori N310 and maybe some 320. In fact, I'd venture that about 50% or more competitive shooters load one of these powders.

Longshot would not be one of them, for sure. While I've loaded longshot in both 40 and 45ACP, I don't find it useful for anything I do. I just didn't find it had any redeeming qualities for self defense loads (high flash, high recoil, extremely loud report), and requires absolutely enormous charges (I believe I was loading 11.4 gr in 40SW SD loads using 135 gr HPs).

More typical IDPA loads in 40 would be something like 3.2-3.4 gr Clays or Solo 1000 under a 180 gr lead bullet. As it turns out, 3.4 gr of Nitro 100 performs identically to 3.4gr Clays with that bullet. However, you can surpass a PF of 145 with just 3.0 gr Clays, although you're going to need a recoil spring from a ballpoint pen and it's not going to feel at all like what you're used to--as in, no recoil whatsoever.

Today's loads were fired in an M&P 40 Pro 5" and were 3.3 gr Clays under the 180gr truncated cone cast bullet. These, IMO, are far faster shooting and back on target than any factory 9mm load. I believe 4.0 gr of Nitro 100 is a bit more accurate, and this gets you up close to PF 160. While that's overkill for ESP division, it comes at very little penalty, and for a few cents more you can shoot it in major USPSA if you like that sort of thing.

For SD loads, in the Kahr or anything else, my choice is SR4756. I fired a few boxes today from the K40--7.9gr to 8.3 gr under 165gr plated hollow points and under 150gr cast. These were absolutely sweeeeet, and I reckon I'll be loading a few thousand at about 8.2 gr SR4756 under those little 150 gr cast bullets. Dead nuts accurate, realistic big boy bullets feel, and just a pleasure. I find SR4756 very noteworthy for a bit lower perceived recoil at full up loads, and its demonstrated very low flash (as in very, very low).

Longshot is off my list permanently--I just don't see it doing that well. I'll mention Universal because it's kind of an odd powder--it seems to do as advertised in the upper 1/2 or upper 1/3 of it's recommended load range, but I swear it goes all harebrained in the lower 1/4 of its load range. All erratic. So, it's useless for light loads IMO, and 'just okay' but nothing special at the high end.

SDGlock23
11-26-2012, 02:59 PM
I've loaded and shot a lot of .40's. For the lighter recoil loads I either use TiteGroup or WST mostly.

180gr bullet w/3.5gr TiteGroup around 1.130" shoots excellent and has very mild recoil. Really anywhere from 3.5-4.5gr shoots very nicely. I get my jacketed bullets from Precision Delta. 180gr precision Delta FMJ w/4.4gr TiteGroup @ 1.130" did 891 fps from my Glock 23 with a 4 fps extreme spread!

I have a lot of Longshot, but I've never really messed with it for light loads, but I will have to add that to my to do list.

For lead bullets, loaded light, I usually stick to WST, it doesn't smoke nearly as bad as TG does with lead. Pretty much all my lead comes from Missouri Bullet Co.

3.5gr WST under a 200gr "Steeler" @ 1.140" is a sweet shooter!
4.0gr WST under a 170gr SWC (or 180gr lead) @ 1.140" is also very nice.

garyb
11-30-2012, 02:12 PM
Bongo Boy, Very Helpful info for IDPA. I will try the Clays loads as you suggested. I Just purchased an M&P40Pro 5" and I will need to work up a new load for it. One of my buddies is using a light Bullseye through his Glock35 for IDPA with 155gr delta precision bullets. Thanks for sharing. I am only using factory ammo for SD and reloads for fun, training and competition.

Do you know why a heavier bullet (180) is recommended for IDPA? I am using 155gr at the present time in my 40's.
Thanks again for sharing. Useful Info.

Bongo Boy
12-02-2012, 11:59 PM
I'm not anywhere near experienced enough to claim anything is 'recommended' for IDPA, I would only go so far as to say that, in general, IDPA and USPSA shooters are probably going to select toward the heavier end of the available bullets.

As you know, each division (whether it's IDPA or USPSA) has a power floor requirement. Given that you reload with the aim of making the required power factor, you have two knobs to turn to do that: bullet weight and bullet velocity.

Well, recoil is more proportional to muzzle energy which in turn is proportional to the product of bullet mass and the bullet velocity squared, or 1/2mv^2, whereas power factor is proportional to mv. The net of it: perceived recoil is very sensitive to bullet velocity, not so sensitive to bullet weight. If I want a given power factor and minimum recoil, I want the heaviest, slowest bullet I can get and still make the power factor.

Having said that, it sounds like the solution to getting back on target fast is easy--run big fat bullets real slow. I just said this would produce the minimum recoil, so why wouldn't you do it? There are several reasons you might not want to do this, and these reasons may help explain why the best shooters probably don't run the heaviest bullets they can.

One very simple to understand factor: as recoil gets lower and lower, the recoil spring you need gets lighter and lighter. A heavy slide with a light spring is the formula for a slow cycle time, IF you get the slide to cycle reliably. A light slide with a heavy spring is the formula for a fast slide. While for beginners this difference may seem silly, you can feel the difference in cycle times, and at some point it's truly annoying. Folks may say the gun feels 'sluggish' or 'nonresponsive'. This is just one easy-to-understand reason heavier bullets aren't necessarily the solution to everything.

Anyway, here are 4 hypothetical load options, all designed to meet major power factor:

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x150/Bongo_Boy/Handloading/MEChart.jpg

The first two rows are bullet weight and muzzle velocity, the 3rd row is the computed power factor, and the last row, the muzzle energy. Remember that muzzle energy is our proxy for felt recoil--the numbers given therefore are proportional to recoil. You can see the rise in muzzle energy for the same power factor as the bullet weight goes down. These are just relative numbers--you can't say twice the muzzle energy produces twice the perceived recoil because there may be no meaning to the concept of 'twice the recoil'. But it does show the impact of bullet weight.

This is how I understand it all, at least. Happy shooting.

Charlie98
12-03-2012, 07:45 AM
I use Unique for 95% of my handgun loads, ranging from the .380 to heavy .41 and .45Colt loads. It works well, gives decent velocity and is fairly economical. Having said that, I'm not trying to make a power category for competitive shooting.

Depending on your press layout... I secured a little LED flashlight to my press to illuminate the contents of the cases just before I seat the bullet (on my 5-station Hornady press.) Never had a double-charge get past me in 25 years of reloading.

garyb
12-03-2012, 07:58 AM
Thanks Bongo Boy. Good info. I think I will try the 180gr bullets and come up with a load with them to compare to the 165gr bullet load I am using to see if I can feel the difference. Good input.

Also Charlie98, good advice on the LED. I use a powder cop on my Hornady LNL progressive, but adding an LED would be a good idea. It certainly won't hurt.

I just read on another forum where a guy blew up his revolver with a double or triple charge using a fast powder (like clays or bullseye). I also received advice from an old timer reloader, against using a fast powder with high pressure and to stick with Longshot for now as it will be safer for me (less pressure) as a rookie reloader. He actually felt Longshot was the ideal powder for the 40. I guess I just happened to pick this powder as my first powder, because that's what was available when I purchased it. Funny thing. I have 2 lbs of Longshot left on my bench and will stick with it and try to develop a load with the 180's as BongoBoy suggested. I guess it will take some more tinkering to get the "feel" I am looking for.

Thanks guys.
Respectfully.

Bongo Boy
12-03-2012, 07:59 AM
Depending on your press layout... I secured a little LED flashlight to my press to illuminate the contents of the cases just before I seat the bullet (on my 5-station Hornady press.) Never had a double-charge get past me in 25 years of reloading.

Absolutely. I have a 12VDC micro work lamp on flexible arm/tube mount--sits right up under the press head where the die mouth is and shine right down into those charged cases. Nice. You can see it, sort of, in this shot:

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x150/Bongo_Boy/Handloading/Bench02.jpg

It's fairly easy, IMO, to get a 40SW load that will have significantly less recoil, snap and flip or whatever you like to call it, than any 9mm factory load I'm familiar with. One example would be 3.5gr Solo 1000 under a 180 gr bullet--this one will put a big smile on your face, guaranteed.

If you're handloading 9mm, this would be a different comparison of course. I don't shoot or reload 9, and just get along with 40 and 45 for now. But against the 9mm factory ammo, I can work up even maximum 40 loads (SR4756) I find more comfortable to shoot especially in the small guns.

mr surveyor
12-17-2012, 05:26 PM
since it's a "powder" thread......

I called my local shop this morning and had his last can of A2400 put back with my name on it...he doesn't know when he may get more. At least I'll have Unique and 2400 for a short time.

mr surveyor
12-17-2012, 06:55 PM
now I just got to figure out how to reload 22 long rifles

DM123
12-22-2012, 07:40 PM
Recently, I've loaded some 40s with WSF. Something I bought by mistake about 1.5 years ago. I only have loading data for .40 and 9s so it's been on the back shelf, so to speak. I was kind of surprised as it actually works quite well.

Out of the 178 powders on my burn rate chart Hodgdon Longshot ranked 68. WSF ranked 46. For comparison purposes Hodgdon Universal was 42. Alliant's Unique was 41 and Hodgdon HP-38 was 35 in the rank. Hodgdon Titewad was #6 and I assume a fast burning powder.

I don't remember where I got this burn rate chart or I would link to it. I'll try and do a bit of research an do that.

garyb
12-26-2012, 01:02 PM
Absolutely. I have a 12VDC micro work lamp on flexible arm/tube mount--sits right up under the press head where the die mouth is and shine right down into those charged cases. Nice. You can see it, sort of, in this shot:

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x150/Bongo_Boy/Handloading/Bench02.jpg

It's fairly easy, IMO, to get a 40SW load that will have significantly less recoil, snap and flip or whatever you like to call it, than any 9mm factory load I'm familiar with. One example would be 3.5gr Solo 1000 under a 180 gr bullet--this one will put a big smile on your face, guaranteed.

If you're handloading 9mm, this would be a different comparison of course. I don't shoot or reload 9, and just get along with 40 and 45 for now. But against the 9mm factory ammo, I can work up even maximum 40 loads (SR4756) I find more comfortable to shoot especially in the small guns.

I'll take a look at that load suggestion for Solo under a 180gr bullet. I've got a pound and 1/2 of Longshot to use up. Things are kind of chaotic in the gun and reloading industry right now. Once things calm down, I'll be shopping for new powder and will keep that load in mind. I appreciate the recommendation. Thanks.

Bongo Boy
01-07-2013, 10:51 PM
Chaotic, no kidding. I was able to squeak in a few orders before things went completely nuts, but was lucky to get Bullseye (which I've never loaded). I figured anyone who loads handgun, and 45 especially, who hasn't loaded Bullseye probably should at least once.

I also bulked up on 800X, another powder I've never used and have no idea what to do with. It was there, what can I say. I now have about 45 lbs of powder in the garage and about 200 lbs of lead. Unfortunately, turning 200 lbs of lead into bullets is less fun than almost anything else I can imagine--but it's gotta get done.

I ended up my hoarding bender with 8 lbs each of Solo 1000, Nitro 100, HP-38 and 800X, and 2 lbs each of Clays, Universal, 4756, Titegroup, WSF and a can of E3 (!). Finding the time to just lay out a loading plan has been hard. But, while I said for 2 years I "would never" load anything other than 40SW and 45ACP, well, now I've got 3,000 cases of 10mm Auto coming and will be forced to load that up, too.

This is my shooting budget through 2016--all expended in the last quarter of 2012.

The two things to know about the burn rate charts (at least the two I've found) is that 1) there isn't any scale or proportion to the ranking, and 2) powders that are nearby one another in the chart may have virtually the same burn rates. So, as a fictitious example, #35 and #36 may actually have the same burn rate, and the difference between #45 and #46 may be far greater (or far less) than the difference between #68 and #69.

All that said, I'm not sure there's anything important to conclude about relative burn rates anyway--one isn't inherently better, worse or safer than any other. Get a double charge loaded and it won't matter too much, I don't think. No charge at all can end up being just as dangerous--so shoot for 1 and only 1. :)

dkmatthews
01-08-2013, 08:29 AM
Holy smokes, BongoBoy! That's one helluva stockpile of powder! I like how you're taking seriously the commitment our forefathers made to keep a firelock, six pounds of powder and 20 pounds of lead read at all times. :thumbup:

Fat-fingered from my Samsung Galaxy TAB2...

MW surveyor
01-08-2013, 12:08 PM
45 pounds of powder:eek:

i think you need more lead than that 200 pounds you presently have. :)

Bongo Boy
01-08-2013, 09:58 PM
Yeah good point--that much powder should throw about 3/4 of a ton downrange or more.

To cast that many bullets I'm going to need about $5,000 worth of coffee--maybe I should have just bought live ammo. :)

Goldstar225
01-14-2013, 07:00 PM
While I don't shoot IDPA, I've reloaded 40 S&W for about 15 years now. I'm not much of an experimenter, I tend to find a load that works and stick with it. In the case of the 40, Power Pistol is my preferred powder with Unique as a back up if I'm out of PP. I load under max with 155 JHP as a duplication load for my duty ammo. This load has worked for me in both my Glock 23 and K40.

Bongo Boy
01-14-2013, 10:02 PM
I think I just heard good comments about Power Pistol in 10mm, too. Too many powders, too little time. I do want to try the 800X in 10mm, but I discovered the metering nightmare of 800X just a few days ago. In the equipment I currently have, it doesn't meter, period. I'll have 8 lbs of corn flakes to hand load the old-fashioned way. By the time I'm done with it, I'll probably have had enough trickling to last a lifetime.

MW surveyor
01-15-2013, 08:41 AM
I don't mind trickling for my 357 magnum loads as I tend to shoot them slow.
Trickling for a semi-auto pistol........................................is not my most favorite thing to do.

dkmatthews
01-17-2013, 09:54 AM
I think I just heard good comments about Power Pistol in 10mm, too. Too many powders, too little time. I do want to try the 800X in 10mm, but I discovered the metering nightmare of 800X just a few days ago. In the equipment I currently have, it doesn't meter, period. I'll have 8 lbs of corn flakes to hand load the old-fashioned way. By the time I'm done with it, I'll probably have had enough trickling to last a lifetime.

That's 1 nice thing about Blue Dot powder. It meters very well through my Lyman press.

Fat-fingered from my Samsung Galaxy TAB2...

MW surveyor
01-17-2013, 10:01 AM
Ran 150 rounds of Clays through the 45 yesterday trying out different grain loads. All shot very well with very good accuracy. Also, way cleaner than Bullseye, W231 and Unique (explosive dirt :) )