Hand loaded defence rounds

[upnorth]

Today my son and I went out to do a water jug expansion test on my defense hand loads,a week ago I loaded up many different loads to see what my 9mm xdm 3.8 liked(I will do the same test when I get my cm 9 back from kahr).I ended up with Hornady xtp 115gr,7.6gr of blue dot compressed,cci 500 primer,and new Winchester brass,oal 1.094,velocity 1189, shoots really well out of my xdm.Back to the test,we set up 4 jugs 3.5 yds away, the xtp 115gr penetrated the 3rd jug and hit the back side about 18 in,the bullet expanded to .570 from .355, bullet weight was 98.6,a little disappointing on the weight but over all pretty good load.what do you think?

[MW surveyor]

Well at least you know they'll take out three water jugs!

Actually sounds pretty good with the expansion to over 1/2".
Did you find where the missing piece of the bullet went?

[AIRret]

I'm curious! I have heard that using hand loads for a defensive shooting can mean real trouble "legally"

[Bawanna]

I'm curious! I have heard that using hand loads for a defensive shooting can mean real trouble "legally"

It can but with all the other things a defensive shooting can create it might be a minor one now days.

I myself never carry reloads for defense but I will if I can't afford and run out of factory.

Word is a prosecutor might say that you specially created a killing round of your own and you planned or looked forward to shooting someone rather than a mild mannered every day bawanna fearing for his life that only used what the expert at the gun shop told him to use.

[mr surveyor]

I still believe that's a way overhyped myth.

I would love to know how many cases of true defensive shooting went the wrong way because the defender was using handloads. Yeah, I know Mr. Ayoob really pushes this, and he a "leading expert", but......

[upnorth]

I've read a little about hand loads to,I agree with mr surveyor that its overhyped.When i load for defense loads I load each one individually and weigh the powder by hand to get exactly the charge I want with all new brass.When loading for target I set the powder measure up then go checking every 10 rd or so. Right now were I live you cant find any defense ammo i was lucky enough to find XTP bullets.Another thing keep good records just in case,and hope that your never put in that situation but prepared if needed.

[jocko]

IMO it is way over rated also. I have yet to read of a case that had any merit to it. Ayoob is not always right either,unlike ol jocko. Surv and bawanna is right..IMO if it ever got that far in a trial, then ur probably in deep sh!t anyway over sumpin else.

Zimmerman/Martin semi white vs black. He was carrying a kel tek,and some would call that a staurday ight special, I have not heard that brought up in his case., but again lawyers willdo what ever it take s to win. IF THE GLOVE DOESN'T FIT U MUST NOT CONVICT--remenmber that fiasco??? Just sayin

[CJB]

Over rated? Probably, but he got that postulation from someplace more than thin air. Can we honestly reload better ammunition than is commercially available?

[mr surveyor]

I remember several years ago reading the story about the particular case that gets touted as reasoning for all the legal hype, and it didn't convince me I would go down for using reloads in the event of a SD event. At least not in Texas.

As for "better" .... that's pretty subjective. Considering effectiveness, yes, I think just as effective.

I have revolvers that get carried 95% of the time, an SP101 I've had for three years and it's seen thousands of rounds (maybe a total of two boxes of factory ammo) - the other is the little Model 36 I re-worked last Spring, and I've yet to put a factory round in it. I do occasionally carry factory jhp's in the SP101 (Hornady XTP or Win PDX), but only because I don't have a stash of XTP's left in the reload supplies. The M36 is carried with Sierra 158 gr jfp's.

I don't think I'm going to worry about legal issues with reloaded ammo.

[wyntrout]

I'll stick with what the police use... proven factory ammo. It's like the lawyer that choose to defend himself... he has a fool for a client. I don't need to conduct my own penetration tests... I'm not going to re-invent the wheel and I'm not so conceited that I think my product would be the ultimate round to be carried.

I did reload for a few decades and made precision ammo, but I didn't have a CWP back then... wasn't allowed in many places. I'll stick to what the professionals use day in and day out, proven in the field and not the latest fad or gimmick ammo. If you kill someone with your pet load, it will be an "issue" in court.

JMHO and YMMV.

Wynn:)

[mr surveyor]

can you cite any court cases .... just curious

and I don't load for max penetration, or fad bullets ... unless you consider old fashioned lead semi-wad cutters to be in vogue.

This is one issue I will NOT live in fear of.

[upnorth]

I did the test more for expansion than penetration.Who is saying there loading the ultimate load?Hand loads can be just as good if not better than factory loads,part of the fun loading is experimenting with different components,You should know this you said you loaded for a few decades.

[wyntrout]

As I said, that was my opinion and your mileage might vary. My 2¢ was somewhat tempered, or flavored with the near completion of my $11.99 bottle of Bordeaux Supérieur from dinner.:D

I like bonded hollow points and favor those by Speer and Remington, though I have some Winchester, too. I prefer using ammo that is used by the major police forces in the country with proven track records. Even if I were still reloading, it would be for the range only, and I would use quality factory ammo for self defense, especially for concealed carry.

Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

I did the test more for expansion than penetration.Who is saying there loading the ultimate load?Hand loads can be just as good if not better than factory loads,part of the fun loading is experimenting with different components,You should know this you said you loaded for a few decades.

I agree part of the challenge of handloading is trying to make it even better. My goal was to match or exceed factory.
I was only looking for accuracy and not concerned about penetration or any of the other stuff, just holes all very close together sometimes a long long way off.

I spent a good amount of time, powder, bullets etc on a TC Contender in 30-30 trying to match factory ammo. Even called Winchester to find out what their recipe was. Talked to a real nice fella who couldn't tell me. They use a blend and he said it's mixed in such large quantities I would not be able to duplicate it. I even tried to have him send me a couple pounds, that almost but didn't quite work. I got close to matching but never surpassed factory but it was sure fun trying.

Might have to renew that effort with all the new powders out in the last few years. Lots more than Unique and 2400 now days.

I don't carry reloads for CCW but after this thread I'm much less concerned about it. If I ever end up in the big house for carrying reloads when I take out a Ovomits look alike son, I trust you'll all write and maybe send a hacksaw blade in a cake or something.

[Ikeo74]

Factory Ammo powder recipes are a trade secret. No bullet manufacture will tell you what they use and will make up the biggest lies to side step the question. You did get more info than most people would though. I think the best way to match factory ammo is to use the same bullet and load it to the same velocity and it will perform just as good.

[Bawanna]

I kind of knew he wasn't gonna tell me anything before I called but had to try. He was a hell of a nice guy. He felt my pain and appreciated my efforts, but as you say policy just wouldn't allow him to tell me which is probably good as I'm the same guy that blew up the Ruger blackhawk with a PO Ackerly triplex load.

I sensed he really wanted to help me though. Was very close.

[Tilos]

I met, a somewhat strange, guy at the range who was proud to show me his "special defense loads" for his under powered 380:behindsofa:
He had taken a factory loaded hollow point, put a small pistol primer in the hollow cavity with the cup facing rearward, and sealed it with something that I don't recall.
He did not shoot any of the "handloads" when I was there, but claimed they were lethal.
Something a lawyer would have fun with, in court, I'm sure:7:

[mr surveyor]

I met, a somewhat strange, guy at the range who was proud to show me his "special defense loads" for his under powered 380:behindsofa:
He had taken a factory loaded hollow point, put a small pistol primer in the hollow cavity with the cup facing rearward, and sealed it with something that I don't recall.
He did not shoot any of the "handloads" when I was there, but claimed they were lethal.
Something a lawyer would have fun with, in court, I'm sure:7:

uuhh.... I believe that's a felony offense anyway, whether it's his silly idea of a defense round or not. But. I'm not a lawyer, and I can't point to the statuate. That sounds like the idea all liberals have of any hollow point ammunition .... exploding bullets designed for nothing but to kill people

[Ikeo74]

I met, a somewhat strange, guy at the range who was proud to show me his "special defense loads" for his under powered 380:behindsofa:
He had taken a factory loaded hollow point, put a small pistol primer in the hollow cavity with the cup facing rearward, and sealed it with something that I don't recall.
He did not shoot any of the "handloads" when I was there, but claimed they were lethal.
Something a lawyer would have fun with, in court, I'm sure:7:
Maybe he meant "lethal" to the guy shooting them....

[Bawanna]

My moron meter is off the charts on that one.

[jocko]

do u sell those Moron meters. First I have ever heard of one. Can'tbe to hard to use if u have one. Have u downloaded any of ol jocko's iconic values to see what it says???That will tellu more if the meter is worth a damn. Doues it go from genius (ol jocko down to Moron (tinman, muggsy, downtown, getsome, , jfootin) j? Just sayin

[wyntrout]

Ammunition manufacturers spend a lot of money on testing their products and components. They have to consider many variables in choosing just the powders and primers because they have to be matched to the perceived use of the particular cartridge and tailored to burn within the "standard" length of barrel to achieve the desired velocity and achieve the desired performance. So, when a company like CCI/Speer develops short-barrel loads and bullets and puts together performance self-defense loads, I'm inclined to believe that THEY know what they are talking about. And, when I CC I want to carry what they've developed for my short-barreled Kahrs and be confident that I have something that will fire when I pull the trigger and give me the best chance of surviving any encounter with bad guy(s).
The Speer Short Barrel loads use a different projectile... quite different in the .45 ACP and the .40 S&W GDSB's. They use a "lower flash" powder that gives the necessary velocity in Kahr-length barrels for the bullet to expand and penetrate as desired.
Reloaders can buy the GD's but I haven't seen or heard anything about the GDSB bullets being available as components

[wyntrout]

Dang! I just had a bunch of trouble trying to finish and add to the last post. I exited Firefox and restarted it, I turned off and restarted my computer, and then tried to post with Firefox again! That didn't work, either.

I had to use Chrome to be able to edit or post here! The whole time, I was "welcomed" at the top right of the log-on page, so I was wondering what the heck was going on.

I lost a lot of typed text and tried to stop adding and say that I was having trouble... had to give up.

Anyhow, I have to go play house and do domestic stuff and you guys can relax and not worry about me boring you anymore for a while!

:typing: :blah:

Wynn:rolleyes: