Need some advise about our 45 reloading

[AIRret]

I have several questions;
First, we are having a hard time getting a proper crimp so that the round will chamber properly. We spent several hours and only came up with 14 test rounds. We have loaded 4,000 9mm without a problem but that doesn't seem to be the case with our first attempts at the 45 ACP. After some reading we ordered a Lee carbide 45 ACP crimping die, we are hoping this die will be easier to adjust. Now for the question, there are not enough stations in the press and obviously the crimping die will be last, but what die do you leave out?
Also, any tips on adjusting the Lee Die? Our press in a Hornady Progressive.

When we decided to begin reloading we choose to buy 100 pieces of new brass in 9mm and 45 ACP, we wanted to minimize some variables at the beginning.
All 14 test rounds fired without a problem and next we'll begin using the brass
we've been collecting. Now when using the primer pocket tool I've notices that there seems to be three pocket sizes; SPP (sorted out), a tight Large primmer pocket, and a large (a little looser... more room for the tool) primmer pocket!

Help MY Confusion.......Thanks folks

[Ikeo74]

I think we can get your 45 loads good to go (chamber and fire) without the Lee die. What exactly is the problem you are having? Explain what is happening.

[Ikeo74]

How many stations does your press have and what brand dies for 45 are you using? Measure the oal of your finished rounds that won't chamber and post it here. Also measure the diameter of the finished round at the point the case meets the bullet. (the case diameter not the bullet).
What is the brand name and weight of bullets you load, describe fully.
Have you dropped a finished round into the barrel removed from the gun to see if it freely drops in and back out?
What gun are you loading the 45's for?
There are only 2 size reamers, large and small. The tighter fit cases must have been originally factory crimped. They are tight because you now have to remove that factory crimp. When the crimp is removed with a couple revolutions of the tool they will feel the same as the looser ones. Cases from Steller and Briant (S and B) are usually crimped in at the factory.

[AIRret]

How many stations does your press have and what brand dies for 45 are you using? Measure the oal of your finished rounds that won't chamber and post it here. Also measure the diameter of the finished round at the point the case meets the bullet. (the case diameter not the bullet).
What is the brand name and weight of bullets you load, describe fully.
Have you dropped a finished round into the barrel removed from the gun to see if it freely drops in and back out?
What gun are you loading the 45's for?
There are only 2 size reamers, large and small. The tighter fit cases must have been originally factory crimped. They are tight because you now have to remove that factory crimp. When the crimp is removed with a couple revolutions of the tool they will feel the same as the looser ones.

The dies are all Hornady. This is the order of the dies; the expander die (bells the brass), the powder drop, the powder cop, bullet feed die, bullet seating and crimping die. Prior to the actual loading be punch the primers and size the cases.
OAL was 1.20 no more than 1.22
At the case mouth we had to work hard to achieve .473 and the WW factory ammo. measures about .470
We used three different 45 barrels to check the rounds (drop them in the barrel that has been removed from the guns). The Xdm 5.25 was the pickiest, Sig 1911, and a Dan Wesson 1911.
Thanks

[AIRret]

I think we can get your 45 loads good to go (chamber and fire) without the Lee die. What exactly is the problem you are having? Explain what is happening.

Almost all the rounds (we were successful with 14 after several hours) would not freely slide in and out of the 3 test barrels we used.

[Ikeo74]

Almost all the rounds (we were successful with 14 after several hours) would not freely slide in and out of the 3 test barrels we used.
This is probably why they are not dropping free. You need to readjust the crimp and seat die to achieve a finished diameter of .471 to.472. To do this you have to raise the seater plug and then lower the complete die until you achieve the size diameter mentioned. /Then re set the seater plug to get the OAL you want. When done propperly the bullet will plunk into a removed barrel and drop freely out when you only turn the barrel upside down. You should not have to even shake the barrel to get the bullet out.
If they don't drop out after that adjustment the OAL is probably too long for the bullet you are loading. What bullet are you loading?

[AIRret]

We are loading Montana Golds FMJ 230gr.

We adjusted the die exactly as you suggested and checked it several times. When we would approach .472 we would end up with bulged line near the crimp.

The dia. at the base of the bullet itself is .451

[Ikeo74]

We are loading Montana Golds FMJ 230gr.

We adjusted the die exactly as you suggested and checked it several times. When we would approach .472 we would end up with bulged line near the crimp.

The dia. at the base of the bullet itself is .451
Two things will cause a bulge in the case just below the base of the seated bullet.
1...The case was not belled enough to allow entry of the bullet.
2...The crimp die is set too low.
Check those 2 things.
When you bell the cases can you stand a bullet upright in the case mouth without it falling over?

Those bulged cases can be recycled by re-sizing and reused. First you will need to unload them. Don't throw them away.

[AIRret]

Two things will cause a bulge in the case just below the base of the seated bullet.
1...The case was not belled enough to allow entry of the bullet.
2...The crimp die is set too low.
Check those 2 things.
When you bell the cases can you stand a bullet upright in the case mouth without it falling over?

Those bulged cases can be recycled by re-sizing and reused. First you will need to unload them. Don't throw them away.

The bulge is at the mouth of the cartridge not at the base of the bullet (maybe I didn't explain myself very well).

Our bell seems to work well with the hornady bullet feeder. Bullet drops in, stands upright and is fine as it travels to the last station.


Bottom line is we can't seem to get the diameter below .473. Tues. we will try reseting the crimp die again. Yesterday we had it apart and reset 5 times. Maybe a fresh day will bring new results.

And yes I have been unloading those bulged cases and recycling them.

I sure appreciate your patients and help.

[Ikeo74]

Here is a link to some Hornady set up videos that might be helpful.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=hornady+die+setup&qpvt=hornady+die+setup&FORM=VDRE

[AIRret]

Thanks, Ikdeo 74, we'll check them out and try again.

[mr surveyor]

I would suggest the Lee Factory Crimp Die anyway .... perfect taper crimp, no bulges, perfectly concentric cases.

But, I'm no expert.

[garyb]

AirRet, I'd give Hornady a call. They can be very helpful....at least that was my experience. They will have the formula.

[AIRret]

AirRet, I'd give Hornady a call. They can be very helpful....at least that was my experience. They will have the formula.

Yes, I think a call will help.
It's strange because we had no issues like this with 9mm.

Thanks

[AIRret]

Well, the Lee crimping die came in so we decided to give it a try. We seat the bullet with the Hornady and crimp it with the Lee die, and it works GREAT. I'm impressed with how consistent the OAL's and diameters are.
When we first installed the Lee die we ended up crushing a few cases at the bullet feed station, but I think we have that straightened out.
Hopefully we will be able to shoot our second batch of 20 test rounds in the next 4 days,
I'll let you know how things work out.
Thanks everyone for your help!

[AIRret]

We shot the second set of test 45's and every one cycled and every one went bang so we are on the right track. The recoil was very mild so we will inch up the powder (currently at 4.3 winchester 231).

[pbagley]

We shot the second set of test 45's and every one cycled and every one went bang so we are on the right track. The recoil was very mild so we will inch up the powder (currently at 4.3 winchester 231).

That sounds like a very light load for .45ACP. I found that my usual 45ACP target load is a bit too light to reliably cycle my CW45. I initially had issues with chambering. My problem was using a SWC cast bullet seated out a bit. Otherwise I find .45 to be an easy round to reload. Make sure your crimp is minimal - just enough to make the case walls straight and uniform. If you are having problems chambering with a Kahr barrel check your OAL. I found that my CW45 has a shorter throat than my other 45ACP's and the bullets had to be seated deeper.

Good luck!

[noylj]

It sounds like you folks are trying to do too much without a proper grounding in reloading.
1) Size--be sure die is just touching the shell plate
2) Get a caliber/cartridge specific powder-thru expander. If Hornady, get the correct (not the generic) PTX. This will expand the case, flare the case mouth, and charge the case. All the PTXs I have used a perfect--I have read about people having problems with them, but I just scratch my head)
3) Get an RCBS Lock-Out die rather than a simple powder cop. If you can't inspect the charge in the case, you can't be looking at the cop either
4) Do you NEED a bullet feeder? I would really prefer to inspect the charge in the case and separate out seating from crimping before I would ever consider a bullet feeder. If I wanted a bullet feeder, the Lee seems simple and it attaches to the seating die. No electric collator, but it does the job.
5) First, set the seating depth (COL), raise the seating stem up all the way, adjust the crimp (you can FEEL the case mouth sticking out from the bullet and you can FEEL when it isn't--beyond that, no more precision is required). Unless you can adjust the crimp die (or the seating die body) all the down and still not have enough crimp, you can continue to adjust down. If you can't get a crimp, you've got a die problem. Does you seating die actually HAVE a crimp step in it?) until the round drops in the chamber. At this point, tighten down the die body (die lock ring) and, with a round in the die, lower the seating stem back down.
Take the barrel our of the gun to check die adjustments and COL. Use the barrel with the shortest throat for future die set-up.

PS: from the sounds of things, you might want to have the group save some money and get a Dillon 1050.

[garyb]

Your points sound fine other than your statement about folks not being grounded in reloading. How do you know that and why in the world would you say that? Additionally, powder cops work just fine. I use one on my Hornady AP. With a Hornady AP you CAN easily inspect the charge in the case and use the cop too. Powder Dawwwble Check! Don't know where you got your info on that point. As far as your comment about the Dillon vs Hornady....both do the job just fine.

[muggsy]

In order to have a uniform crimp the cases need to be of the same length. Since the .45 APC like the 9MM luger head spaces on the case mouth the case can't be over length. Have you checked the case length? All that you are trying to do is remove the bell of the case mouth. You shouldn't have to go below a diameter of .473 to have the round chamber.

[pbagley]

Agree on the case length. Have you ever seen a .45ACP stretch? Mine seem to get shorter over time. When I mentioned taper crimp I omitted the headspace information. Thanks for catching that. Agree on all points, but with the additional detail of making all the rounds uniform for best accuracy.



In order to have a uniform crimp the cases need to be of the same length. Since the .45 APC like the 9MM luger head spaces on the case mouth the case can't be over length. Have you checked the case length? All that you are trying to do is remove the bell of the case mouth. You shouldn't have to go below a diameter of .473 to have the round chamber.

[Tilos]

You said:
"Also, any tips on adjusting the Lee Die? Our press in a Hornady Progressive."
And:
"At the case mouth we had to work hard to achieve .473 and the WW factory ammo. measures about .470"

I suggest:
Use a finished (could be factory) round to set the starting point of both the seating and crimping die, as separate operations, one die to seat, one die to crimp (lee crimp).
Get all the dies set and adjusted to produce a round that chambers, WITHOUT POWDER OR PRIMERS, while running only one round thru the progression.
If the produced round doesn't chamber, pull the bullet, adjust the dies and try again.
You'll be where you need to be and may require some minor adjustments when there's a round in each station.
I have never been concerned about the case mouth diameter, only the chambering.

Overall Length
The overall length is only a reference as it's the ogive of the bullet that touches the rifling on a round that is too long.
Drop a bullet in the barrel, push a fired case in behind it until the case mouth touches the shoulder in the chamber.
Carefully remove the bullet/case assembly and measure the overall length.
Sometimes a slight ovalizing the case will help it hold onto the bullet for this.
The measured overall length is the max for that bullet/barrel combo.
And there's quality "how to" vids here
http://ultimatereloader.com/2011/01/16/hornady-lock-n-load-bullet-feeder-loading-45-acp/
good luck, :D

[noylj]

>our points sound fine other than your statement about folks not being grounded in reloading. How do you know that and why in the world would you say that? Additionally, powder cops work just fine. I use one on my Hornady AP. With a Hornady AP you CAN easily inspect the charge in the case and use the cop too. Powder Dawwwble Check! Don't know where you got your info on that point. As far as your comment about the Dillon vs Hornady....both do the job just fine.

Well, simply the fact that they posted the question when they seem to have a reloading factory machine when they don't seem to know most of the basics tends to tell me that they have "bit off" more than they can chew right now--and I THOUGHT they might like to be told that they might just be trying to do too much all at once and if they are going to reload as a team effort, they might want to step up in reloading machine.
Powder cop: If you don't look at it, it isn't of any use. That's the INFO I have. If you can't look in the case for the charge, you aren't going to look at the cop. Most people watch the bullet being seated and not the powder cop die. IF, and I do mean only IF, one looks at the powder cop die will it help. Since you do both, that is good. I assume you do so EVERY SINGLE time and NEVER miss looking at the powder cop die? The Lock-Out die (like the Dillon Powder Check Die) works without being looked at and is, therefore, a much safer and surer way to check the powder.
Yes, Hornady and Dillon both do a good job. One costs a lot more. I gave my REASONS for why I would choose one or the other and even why I would go with the more expensive option.

[AIRret]

Thanks for all the info. folks. We haven't been near our equipment for months because we went southwest for the winter.
Unfortunately, our warm weather (the whole country is freezing so that is relative) RV trip is being cut short. My husbands 89 year old Mother took a hard fall and has a compound fracture of her right femur. She has had two surgeries and is now in a rehabilitation nursing home for 8 weeks. Our goal is to get home so we can help out when she is released from rehab. She is a tough Lady who grew up on a poor potato farm so she knows what hard times are all about. Prior to the fall she was still doing her own house work, cooking, driving during the day, AND when weather allows she still hangs her cloth outside! Last summer we had to lower her cloths line because she has shrunk with age! Lord willing she will eventually be independent again because that is what she truly wants.

Anyway, say a prayer for her and pray that we will be able to get home (SAFELY) soon.
We are currently in Biloxi, MS waiting for a 3 day window to head north. We keep
monitoring the road/weather conditions between here and SE Michigan and will complete the trip when things look reasonable. Our 5th wheel is 36 feet and we don't need to drive across icy roads. It won't help my Mother In Law if we get in an accident.

[Tilos]

AIRret:
Sorry to here about your mother-in-law's health problems and apologize for not seeing that someone had bumped up your old thread.
Reloading can wait until life affords you the time for it, we'll be here to help.
Ken

[Bawanna]

Amen to that.

[muggsy]

Agree on the case length. Have you ever seen a .45ACP stretch? Mine seem to get shorter over time. When I mentioned taper crimp I omitted the headspace information. Thanks for catching that. Agree on all points, but with the additional detail of making all the rounds uniform for best accuracy.

I've never seen a .45 case stretch, but I have seen them come from the manufacturer over length. I generally trim all of my pistol cases to the same length the first time I reload them just for the sake of uniformity. After that I don't worry about them.