Wynn's P380 Magazine Modifications

[wyntrout]

Well, here's my latest daring(?) use of abrasive tools on one of my prized Kahrs' components.

The Kahr magazines are not known for securely holding the cartridges in place. I had(or still have) the occasional premature slide locked back with rounds left in the magazine. I've noticed that the next round can be forward a bit and during the ejection and chambering the next round process, this forward position of the cartridge can impact the slide lock and cause the slide to lock back... or at least, it seems so. The cartridges certainly seem prone to move about with no "detent" to keep them in place.

Ideally, I would prefer to put a dimple in each side of the feed lips to hold the cartridge in place by giving an inward "detent" between the rim and the case wall of the top cartridge. However, the stainless steel is VERY tough and I figure that I would smash the lip inward before I would dent it.

I chose a more drastic, but easier(?) measure to remove enough of the lip to cause a detent to restrain the cartridge by the rim. My mods aren't neat and I stopped before I screwed them up by trying to make it look neater... by removing more material!

I placed the magazine tube in a protected vise and left only the area and amount of it I wanted to remove free of the vise jaws. I used only files and 400-grit sandpaper with frequent test for retention. Then I tried to chamber a round to find that the stripper couldn't overcome the "detent". So, I smoothed that area making a gradual incline away from the detent. I did this with files and then sanded those areas smooth.

I finally got it where I could RAPIDLY sling-shot the slide and cycle the 6 rounds through the gun and getting no malfunctions. I modified the second magazine with the DLT... that sucker is quick! I propped my hands and tried to be as careful as possible. I achieved the modification more quickly, and again, I did not try to make the mods pretty. I tried to leave well enough alone.

I still need to test these mods at the range, but I have high hopes my too frequent premature slide-lock-backs will be a thing of the past.

I've spent a lot of time scalloping the magazine catch to prevent it from impeding the spring or the follower and I've removed a bit of the slide lock. There's no touching of the slide lock by a cartridge unless it's forward a bit in the magazine and the magazines are still securely held in place with the catch.

I'll try to get to the range and report back here with the results. Wifey is off the next two days and if she doesn't run off shopping -- HER favorite hobby or pastime -- I'll try to do that tomorrow. I'm anxious to see if I can carry this superb-shooting little gun with my light summer attire and without the under-Polo suspenders I've been resorting to for carrying Boomer and a 6 or 7-round reload on my belt.

Pictures... Tools used, modified and unmodified mags with or without the innards. When I used the DLT, I put a fired casing in the complete magazine, starting out with the initial cut. Then I went to just the empty mag tube. I tried to remove as little material as possible and retain as much strength of the magazine lips. That SS is very tough and I don't think those lips will give away any under loaded, full-magazine compression.
The first pix are centered around the DLT modification and empty mags. The next batch will be the first mod and loaded mags.

Wynn

[wyntrout]

Again these are pretty rough and not "pretty" modifications. I'm really hesitant to try to pretty them up and screw things up.
Here are the next 5 of the first mod with loaded rounds:

[rglbegl]

. . . . .I'll try to get to the range and report back here with the results. . . . .
Wynn

Awaiting results.
Looks like a simple fix.
Cant wait to hear how well it works

[Bawanna]

Interesting concept Wynn. I admit I had a hard time grasping what your plan was without the pictures. In theory your approach seems sound and I agree that those feed lips are strong and inflexible. but also the weakest link in the magazine food chain, next to the follower. I just hope they work. Don't want to put too much restraint on that cartridge being able to head for the chamber as you've already determined in the first attempts. I'm really curious to see how they run under fire and what happens to the subsequent rounds as they pop up. Your a brave and adventurous fellow to take this on. Can't believe your afraid of a little ole griz.
Don't forget your camera on the range trip buddy.

[wyntrout]

Okay... I didn't take my own advice or leave well enough alone. I went back and took one of the modified (DLT) magazines and tried to make it look better. As I figured, I wound up with too much removed and tried all kinds of things to compensate. I learned a lot and will try to pass that on to everyone.

I found that the less removed the better because it doesn't alter the top cartridge's angle. At some point as I was trying to cosmetically improve my "handiwork", I changed the angle too much and the rim of the top cartridge began catching in the groove between the rim and the case wall on the lower case. This was definitely a show stopper. I had a slide lock of sorts, requiring me to pull the slide to the rear and pushing the magazine release button to get the magazine out of the grip.

I tried all kinds of things... more filing of the follower top where the rear of the cartridges rest to drop the rear of the of the stack. I tried bending, then beating the lips against a round part of my small vise. I did get them to bend inward a bit with but no improvement. I fiddled with all kinds of filing, sanding, bending attempts (SS is tough), and beating into shape... for over an hour. I had to give up on that. I noticed that the top cartridge rim was pressing against the bottom of the ejector, which can't be a good thing, either.:rolleyes:

I can salvage the base plate, lock, and spring.:D This is a small price to pay IF I get the improvement that I sought.

So much for getting carried away. I went ahead and tried using the DLT on the third magazine and just took a tiny bit off with a fired case in place. I took just enough to cause the rim to be held in place… enough to keep it from creeping forward. After testing that, I went ahead and did the fourth magazine. I was real careful to remove as little as possible and had to only make very minor touches to get what I needed. I only sanded the results... no polishing, yet, but both mags functioned fine with the rapid as possible sling-shotting... kind of jerking the slide fully to the rear and releasing it with that hand continuing on and not stopping so there was no drag.

The last two mags are minimally changed but seem to give me the retention I need or wanted. I have more pictures.

I hope this effort proves beneficial to anyone who thinks they need more cartridge retention. It can be done, but less (removal) is better!

I might consider my other caliber Kahrs, if it really seems necessary. I still need to range test these things... and order another magazine or two.:D

I went ahead and polished my mods and the lips. Then I loaded and cycled them all again without any problems. I'm through until the real test with firing at the range.

Wynn:D

[jlottmc]

A dimple would be simple enough to do with a center punch and some scrap wood to support the feed lips.

[wyntrout]

A dimple would be simple enough to do with a center punch and some scrap wood to support the feed lips.

After beating on them with a hammer on the steel rods that are part of my small vise, I can't see those things dimpling. That metal is tough. I guess I could test the one I destroyed sometime.:D

I don't have time for a full report, but my fix or mod didn't stop the random premature slide locks. I have three P380 mags left and I put a Sharpie stripe on each one as I had a problem. One has 4 marks, one 2, and I thought the third was going to make it all the way, but I had to give it a mark, too.

I fired 112 S&B 92-gr FMJ, 19 Winchester Ranger "T"s, and 7 Buffalo Bore 90-gr +P, and I had about 5 premature lockbacks and 2 failures to feed or chamber fully... cocked upward into the chamber. That's 7 "malfunctions" or about a 5% "failure" rate. I had one problem with the Winchester and none with the Buffalo Bore.

Maybe I need to try a new slide lock. I don't know anything else to try.

The PM45 was much better. Boomer did bite me once when I tried shooting with my left hand and crossed my right thumb behind the left... which was weird. I don't do that with my right and support hand. I just don't have any practice with the left hand. It's no fun shooting that way.

I fired 100 Atlanta Arms & Ammo 230-grain TCJ... an electroplated bullet that looked like FMJ. The finish covers the entire bullet and that stuff shot well... ya know, bang! hole in target. It was $17 a box, so I thought... what the heck, I'm looking for ammo that cheap, I might as well save my good range fodder and use the stuff that's available at the range.
I shot 50 UMC 230-gr FMJ and... my last box of Wolf 230-gr FMJ. I had one FTFeed and 1 FTFeed and jam with the Wolf. I cleaned the feed ramp and ran an oil patch through the barrel a couple of times and finished off the Wolf. I let the guys fire 5 each PMC, so there's another 10 rounds for a total of 210 .45.

I was talking to two guys next to me and showed them the Kahrs. One of the guys had a German Makarov and had never fired a .45 and the other had a High Power with Pachmayr grips... fat. We shot each other's guns and they got to shoot a mag through each of the P380 and the PM45. They were really impressed with the size of the PM45. The one guy said he wanted to get a .45, but didn't know what to get. I told him the CW45 would be a good inexpensive gun and it's only lightly longer in the barrel and the grip. The store had one for $529.99 and I told him he could probably get one for about $450... much cheaper than the PMs.

The sights and triggers were different, of course, and it was like shooting .22 LR, especially the High Power.

Well, I need to cook supper for us. Wifey is on her break for two days. i'll try to get some pictures posted later. I got firing flashes and target pix.

Wynn:D

[jlottmc]

Wynn if you use a steel rod for your dimples, then the mag has nowhere to push around and let that dimple form. That is why I said wood to support it, and try it on the bad mag. If that doesn't cure the problem, then might add a rail/sleeve in the back of the magazine to keep rounds in a uniform position. That would probably tax some skills though, the groove you would have to cut in the follower alone...probably best left alone. I might ask Kahr about it again if you haven't already. Try also tapping the back of the magazine against your hand right before you load it in the pistol, sounds silly, but for some reason it seats all the rounds against the rear of the magazine. Just trying to get you right again.

[wyntrout]

I was trying to reshape the lips, which I did somewhat, but the damage was done to the one magazine. Like I said, I knew that I should have left well enough alone.
I also tried reshaping the follower but I was running out of material there as well. I tried to steepen the angle... lower back to front.
I need to consult with Ian and show him the pictures of my slide stop which, come to find out, is a two-part pin with a step, which makes it hard to get back into the hole. Mine looks nothing like the picture in the Kahr Parts section. I also have a torx #5 screw versus the slotted one pictured.
See my pictures:

Wynn

[wyntrout]

Dang! My glucose is 56, which is pretty darn low for me... cold sweat... weak and disoriented... the shakes... yep, about normal...:w00t: :2eek: :spider: :faint2:

I do have some pictures from the range, but I can't concentrate and need sleep, too. My diabetes II meds work too well sometimes and cause me serious hypoglycemia... I don't snack enough! Then when I have a bad episode like this I stuff my face... it's the only thing that feels good at the moment.

I need a nap.:) later.
Wynn

[wyntrout]

.380 ammo used:
Buffalo Bore 90-gr Bonded JHP +P 7 rounds
Winchester Ranger 95-gr T-Series (Talon replacement) 19 rounds --
these are the ones I cycled through the magazines and gun many times.
Sellier & Bellot (Czech) 92-gr FMJ 110
Pictures:

[wyntrout]

Winchester Ranger 95-gr T-Series (Talon replacement) 19 rounds --
these are the ones I cycled through the magazines and gun many times.

[wyntrout]

Now the S&B FMJ. I fired 100 and two guys fired 6 each to try the gun.

Wynn

[wyntrout]

The Buffalo Bore +P is like shooting 9mm +P in the PM9. More bang, more flash, and MORE recoil.
The Ranger Talons were pretty mild and the S&B were maybe a teensy bit stouter than the Talons, it's hard to say. Those two had considerably less everything than the BB.

I'll post the PM45 pix in the PM sub-forum.

Wynn:D

[jocko]

.380 ammo used:
Buffalo Bore 90-gr Bonded JHP +P 7 rounds
Winchester Ranger 95-gr T-Series (Talon replacement) 19 rounds --
these are the ones I cycled through the magazines and gun many times.
Sellier & Bellot (Czech) 92-gr FMJ 110
Pictures:

observation but looking at those photos, i could see how quite possably that left thumb might cause pre mature slide locking open..:popcorn:

I feel for you right hand shooters with these small guns, That ol thumb is just dying to hit that slide lock lever. where as us good lefties never have to worry about that stuff..

[Bawanna]

observation but looking at those photos, i could see how quite possably that left thumb might cause pre mature slide locking open..:popcorn:

I feel for you right hand shooters with these small guns, That ol thumb is just dying to hit that slide lock lever. where as us good lefties never have to worry about that stuff..

Gosh darn, I forgot about that left hand thing. I got one of these headed your way, you can park whereever you want now. I do this as a public service. No worries I have a spare!

[jocko]

thanx Bawanna, but you know I might even be right for once???? and here all the time you thought us lefties were useless as **** on a boar...

[Bawanna]

thanx Bawanna, but you know I might even be right for once???? and here all the time you thought us lefties were useless as **** on a boar...

Of course your right, in this case being a lefty is a great thing. Can anyone name another good thing about being left handed? Hmm? Your living proof that handicapped people can make a contribution to society. I on the other hand am a poster child for being a canker sore or blight on the boars breast. I'm just good at it.

[jocko]

Of course your right, in this case being a lefty is a great thing. Can anyone name another good thing about being left handed? Hmm? Your living proof that handicapped people can make a contribution to society. I on the other hand am a poster child for being a canker sore or blight on the boars breast. I'm just good at it.

scenting again:banplease:

[wyntrout]

Hey Bawanna', I got you a place to park if you get out this way.:D

Jocko, I use my left thumb to hold down my right thumb and keep it away from the gun.

A different perspective (map)

[Bawanna]

Hey Bawanna', I got you a place to park if you get out this way.:D

Jocko, I use my left thumb to hold down my right thumb and keep it away from the gun.

A different perspective (map)

Yup, that looks like a fine spot, I'll be sure to bring my placard so I don't get a ticket before the alligators have lunch.
I tried the hold the thumb down with the other deal and it did'nt work for me. I don't do it with any of the others so the transition wasn't good. I think with my lever reduction operation my troubles are over. Won't know for sure till next range day but here at home it's working fine.

[wyntrout]

Hey! You might get a fine for feeding the wildlife!
Wynn:D

[wyntrout]

My P380 got back home around noon. :cheer2: Got one new mag and one of the old ones was in a baggie labeled "no good". I'll try to rehab that one. I fully disassembled(slide, too) and cleaned and lubed the P380 and all magazines, and am readying for a trip to the range. I want to hit the skeet range with that CD Tactical SA as well.

I have a box of UMC .380 FMJ to try, as well as my S&B FMJ, and some more Ranger Talons, my SD ammo. I'll just save my BB SD ammo until I need some real kick-ass SD ammo. That stuff is no fun to shoot. jlottmc might like the recoil :D, but it's a bunch for such a tiny gun.

Kahr got it back in less than a week with the gun spending most of the long weekend at the FedEx drop off at the airport. Kudos to Kahr CS.

Boomer is awaiting a new DLC slide, if they can find one. If not, it's possible to re-strike the engraving and refinish the slide.

Meanwhile... toys to play with.:59:


Wynn:D

[wyntrout]

Kahr got my guns Tuesday and started right on them. They are looking for a new slide to replace my PM45 DLC slide with the VERY weakly struck or rolled engraving.
They finished with the P380 Wednesday and sent it back by 2-Day FedEx. I got it inside 48 hours, which was a good turn-around, considering the long holiday weekend. I got the guns to FedEx before 8:30 PM last Friday.

Problems Reported: Slide locks back, 2 mags

Action Taken:
Test fired. Replaced slide stop spring and 1 magazine. polished slide stop. Test fired 60+ rounds. Test fired ok.

Okay... went to the range with just the P380. I fired 88 rounds of
S&B 92-gr FMJ, with one failure to fire, rec0cked no fire. Ejected, put in magazine and rechambered it... fired this time. Third time's the charm, I guess.

UMC 95-gr FMJ, 50 rounds, not a hiccup!

Winchester Ranger Talons, 18 fired with no problems.

That's 156 rounds fired with NO Problems, except the one ammo-related S&B semi-dud. With the previous 5% random slide locks, I would have had about 8 premature slide locks.

This puppy is READY for CCW and the Ranger Talons are good to carry as well.

Kahr CS really came through and fixed this one. I tinkered with the "no good" magazine... I had added "detents" to the 4 magazines I had, destroying one in the process(not unusual for me when I "fix" stuff). After a bit of filing and sanding I used all four magazines, including the new one and the "no good" one, and I had no failures to feed or slide locks. I still want to get 2 more new mags and wish that Kahr would make a 7-rounder with the extended grip. Those are kinder to my ribs than the all-metal flush-fitting ones. I had to add a flap with 3M double-sided adhesive tape to protect my skin. Fortunately I had several kinds of black material to use for that. I fixed up at least one magazine holder for each gun/caliber so I can carry a spare reload without pain now.

I'm sure happy to have the P380 for general all-around carry now while it's so danged hot!

I'll try to get some pictures after I eat some of my getting-cold pizza.

Wynn:D

[Bawanna]

I'm sure glad they are going to make that PM45 right for you. That thing has beena burr under my saddle ever since you got it back. Glad they saw the light and realized how shoddy that second slide really was.
They were rapidly on the path to Bawanna's BAD list but we're headed back to the A ok side again.