Trigger Pivot Pin Backed Out

[wyntrout]

I'm starting a new thread here to cover this problem and my "fix". I'll copy some previous posts... mine and helpers’ (edited for brevity and some spelling correction... for clarity...yeah, I'm sort of anal about spelling:rolleyes:) here and add before and after pictures.

I just copied this and moved it to a Word document so I won’t lose it going back and forth between posts/threads. I hate when that happens!

I was looking at older pictures of my PM45 trying to see if the slides had changed in the front... now beveled a bit, when I noticed the trigger pivot pin was backed out! I could see inside the left-hand side! I first noticed the right side was not flush and then thought what the heck??
I tried light tapping with a screwdriver handle butt, but didn't want to bend that retention pin or break the plastic!
Do you or anyone else know anything about this. I really don't know if the retention or retainer pin is inserted from the outside or from inside the frame.
I fired off a message and pix to Eoin this morning. I didn't even get to shoot it... which is probably a good thing. The left side isn't supported very much and I don't know what could have happened if I had fired it.
CONTINUED:

JOCKO said “it is put in from the outside. Wynn, my PM9 pin moved about what yours looked like and my retention pin was still way up there. Only thing I could figure was that the pin was not actually making contact with the pin even, so I pushed out my trigger pin a tad more and put some super glue on it and tapped it back in and it has never moved. I was not going to send it back for that unless my solution did not work. This has been about a year plus ago. Another thing that could possibly be but I doubt it is the trigger pin end is out of spec. I would bet if you returned it to Kahr, they would try replacing it with a new trigger pin and crossing their fingers. I don't think once that retention pin is inserted it can be taken out.
Wynn:
Thanks, Jocko. I tried driving it out a bit and then tried pushing it back in with a big pair of slip jaw piers with rubber guards but I can’t get the thing flush. I pushed it in or partially out so I could see the pin and if there was a way to get it out of the way, but the retention pin goes up into the frame and it couldn't scrape it down a bit to be able to grab the darn thing and pull it out of the way. I tried a little bit to use a plastic rod and my screwdriver handle to tap it flush but no go.
I finally just put it aside until I hear from Eoin.
That darn retention pin doesn't protrude very far into the pivot pin hole, but the pivot pin doesn't want to get back past the darn thing.

JOCKO: sounds to me like the retention pin is doing what it is designed to do. The trigger actually is pushed out by a pusher and it has to slide by the retention pin with some force to get by it. So if it was mine, then I would just lay the gun with the retention pin side down on a taped hard surface and then from the other side with a flat punch and tape on the punch head, give that trigger pin one hell of a rap and it will go back, then keep an eye on it to see what happens after that. You’re not going to hurt one thing Wynn by doing this, maybe to err on the side of caution push the trigger pin from the retention side a little further out and then set up the situation as I described and before giving the trigger pin that love tap, put some super glue on that right side area and then drive it home. I think it will stay put after that. MINE DID

Wynn:
Dang! What a PITA! I got a dowel and whittled down one end to the size of the right side of the pin that needs to go flush. I got a small hammer, but had to turn it sideways because the first whack missed... ouch! Worried about hitting the gun, too.
I've given it several good whacks... several times and it looks good on the left side, but then pops back inside the frame! The right side just won't go completely flush. I tried backing it out a bit and having a go at it, but it pops the back wrong way after a few seconds.
It's too oily to use my Permatex threadlocker and I don't want to completely remove the darn pin. No word from Kahr, yet. That's the problem with addressing a particular person... he might not be there! <sigh>

Bawanna':
Wonder if you could move the trigger back and forth a bit while trying to push the pin in or perhaps a small c-clamp. I doubt threadlocker would do any good on a smooth pin, the super glue or something of that nature would be a better choice although I'm not warm and fuzzy with the permanent nature of that stuff if you ever have to change a trigger spring or something.
I'm wondering if the retainer pin end lines up with anything like a notch in the trigger pin? Never seen one out so not sure what it even looks like. Maybe the schematics here have a clear enough picture.

JOCKO: thread locker will not work and super glue will not prevent one from moving the pin if needed. The retainer pin is not a replacement part, as once in, unless it actually backs itself out, you can't get it out. I have seen that retainer pin back out also. My PM9 did that ONCE. Not sure a wooden dowel Wynn is the right thing to use as there is some absorption in the wooden dowel over a flat punch.

Actually moving the trigger itself back and forth IMO will do nothing, as the trigger pin is actually all the way through the trigger and both sides of the polymer grip. There is quite a bit of thickness in the grip area where that pin goes through on both sides. My suggestions to Wynn is merely a way in which I think will work as it has worked for my PM9 and if all else fails, then send it back to kahr. It will not void any warranty either and more than likely will solve the issue of the walking trigger pin. THREAD LOCKER will not work. Super glue will work and yet with a good swift hit on that pin, it will break loose of its glue status and allow one to remove it. I have yet to ever read of anything in that kahr trigger set up ever breaking where pin replacement is necessary...

CONTINUED...

[wyntrout]

Wynn:
Well... just heard from Jason at Kahr CS... personal call and he gave me his direct number for any more on this "episode". I'm going to move this over to a separate thread. I've really co-opted or hijacked this one! I'll include before and after pix.
Some BEFORE pictures:

[wyntrout]

Well, I finally cobbled together a “pusher” out of parts on hand that I scrounged up. I put 3M double-sided tape on the upper part of the 12" channel locks, and anti-skid rubber stuff on the other side to protect the gun, to press the pin back in. I needed a brass part for pushing the pin and looked around for something, until I remembered I had several broken PLASTIC SNAP CAPS… I recommend the metal ones! I used the BRASS “primer” pin from the snap cap as the driver and stuck it into the 3M tape on the upper part of the 12” channel locks. I stuck a plastic rod on top of the pistol in case the pin slipped.

It worked… actually seating the pin a little lower than flush. I swabbed the depression out with alcohol, dried it with a hair drier, and then put some super glue in there. After just a few seconds, I swabbed the excess out quickly with a piece of CLOTH so there was no sticky residue with pieces of paper towel or something else. I’ve done that before…. :rolleyes:

I tried tapping the retainer pin flush and it looks like the pin had been pushed aside a bit. I’m thinking about putting a bit of super glue in there. I’ll keep an eye on this and call JASON at Kahr Customer Service if I have any more trouble with this. He called me right after I got through and was writing this up… really nice guy… gave me his direct number for this. I told him what all I had done and he said that should hold, but call him if it didn’t.

Maybe this will help someone else with this problem.

Wynn :)

Thanks to Jocko and Bawanna' for your suggestions and help. :)

AFTER Pictures:

[Bawanna]

It sure seems like that retainer pin should be going thru the trigger pin or lining up with a groove on the pin. It's obviously there to keep the pin from drifting to the right like yours did. I can't possibly drift to the left which would be impossible. So it's not a stop pin since the trigger pin is obviously past the retainer as your pictures show. So it only putting a little side pressure on the trigger pin apparently.
I think your good to go. Jocko's superglue trick should hold just dandy. Now go shoot it and see if it works.

[wyntrout]

I was just visiting with my Mail Carrier and now I'm finishing my bowl of granola. I'm thinking about gathering up the K9 and the PM45 for range testing.
How did you like my pusher "tool"?
Wynn:D

[jocko]

nice work wyn. u really did a neat job of it to, Your pin on the right side is actually ibn further than the one on my PM9, but heh, if it ain't broke DON'
T FIX IT.

again nice work. I do hope this solves your issue, u certainly have been our POSTER BOY for kahr issues and re issues..

[wyntrout]

I think that it may have spread the frame a bit. Shooting it will be the test. IF I can get going here shortly... getting late!
I think my range box is packed... guns AND ammo AND magazines and targets. I just need to get dressed a bit and get after it. Gonna be hot at the range... only about 85° outside... first day of FALL and all... best month for hurricanes, too.
Later.
Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

Boomer worked fine at the range today, I shot a box of 50 each of Blazers (Al), Win100, and UMC... all 230-gr FMJ. I had 4-5 stovepipes with the Win100... three or four in a row... same magazine... forgot to note the magazine... DOH!
It could be that I was a little more relaxed... but for some reason I had about 5 stovepipes close together... could have been a bit my fault. I was trying to see if I could let up from the "machine rest" grip I had to use before it went back to Kahr the last time.
The 3--4 in a row stove pipes was weird, though.
I didn't notice the trigger pivot pin moving back out. I'll have to check later... I was up late... or early this morning... and I don't feel like cleaning guns right now. I had some pasta and wine and it's nappy time.:) I have an hour until I have to drag hoses around... watering the yard... got a timer set and the hoses are on timers.
Wifey hates when the DVR controller falls asleep... me!
Later ZZzzzzz....
Wynn:D

[jocko]

good news wyn. what u you did to fix the trigger pin wold have zero to do with the stovepipes, the winchester not working perfect and the umc doing OK tells you that also. Nice job on your creeping trigger pin.

[wyntrout]

After 150 rounds of 230-gr FMJ, the trigger pivot pin is just like my "after" pictures from that post... didn't move.

I wish that I had made a note of which magazine it was that I had the last 4 in a row stovepipe... and maybe that was the one that I had 1 FTRTB. I had to hit the back of the slide twice to get the slide all the way into battery position... ammo? I think the WW100's were giving me some problems... not sure that was the ammo's fault. I forgot to take anything to write on and tried to make some notes on the targets.

I tried various methods on clearing the stove-pipes... some I could just pull the slide back and let them fall out and then finish chambering the round partially in the chamber, and a few I had to drop the mag and rack the slide... I was just being lazy, though.:D

I first fired 50 PMC aluminum-cased Blazers. On the first 24, I had one FTFeed at #22 and then fired the rest of the box with no problems until the last...# 50 stove-piped.

I then fired 50 WW100 with problems noted above... at least 5 stove-pipes and 1 FTRTB.

Lastly, I fired 50 UMC with no problems of any kind.

I was tempted to go get some AAA copper-plated range ammo from the store up front for $17 a box, but decided I didn't want to get "tired", I still had the K9 and 150 rounds of FMJ for it, plus one magazine of Double Tap 124-gr +P Gold Dots that got mixed in with the first round of loaded magazines from home. I was shooting just the 8-round extended grip magazines and one regular magazine with defense ammo that I had intended to at least notice when I shot it. :rolleyes:

One of several things I noticed was the difference between the PM45 and the K9... besides recoil. The trigger of the K9 has more slack and feels a little mushy, with a shorter pull to sear break. A rough measurement of the slack is about 5/16" while the PM45's was less than 1/8"... maybe 3/32". After the slack is taken up, the PM45 trigger is smooth and even to sear break, while the K9 seems mushy with some un-evenness and creep. I had to really concentrate on shooting the K9... lots of hits left of center and it was hard to move the POI up to the top of the bullseye... purposefully, though I managed that a few times. I still mostly point with the barrel/slide obscuring the general POA.
The PM45 is much easier to shoot, especially with the nicer trigger pull. Both guns have real stiff recoil springs and the K9 is original(March '98). I must be getting closer to 1,000 rounds through it. I have a Wolff replacement ready when it looks like it needs a new one.
Kahr CS fired 70 rounds through the PM45 on their last test before sending it back to me with the new frame. I just put 150 rounds through it and feel comfortable shooting it, but I'm not ready to CCW with it... still too hot and I want to shoot it some more... and try my Golden Sabers in it... 230-gr Bonded GS, standard velocity.

My targets aren't noteworthy, but I shoot better with the .45 and can place my shots more easily.

With both guns I can keep all of the shots on a pie plate at 7 yards, but at 15 yards, I'm lucky to get half on the plate. I don't shoot slowly with careful aim for most shots. When I do, more often than not, a hole appears where I wanted it to... a little shaky at 15 yards, though.:D

I tend to rush the K9 after taking up the slack... the trigger action kind of sucks after the PM's. The recoil is lighter than the PM, but I just don't take the time and care with shots and most of my hits are center to left and a hair low. A hostage to the left of a BG would be in danger of "friendly fire".:eek:

I keep forgetting to try single-hand shooting. I think I could probably do that with the K9, but couldn't count on the PM45. It was easier to hold again... no machine rest grip needed.

Wynn:)

[jocko]

my accuracy is not much better wyn, with my PM9. I think I can keep them in a pie plate at 15 yards but the bigger pie plate for sure. I went out yesterday and fired 100 rounds of wwb out of my PM9 at 7 yards and my accuacy was good (for me). all groups are 4" some better, most not. Fired my tuned G19 at the same distance. One inch groups are just so common with this gun, it bores me to shoot it. I attribute allthat accuracy to to a much shorter trigger system and a bigger gun also but my G19 is just one hell of a shooter. My PM9 is my total defense gun. I feel totally confident at 7 yards with it, might not be able to dot the eye with it but I will surround the "eye" with my groups. I fault my accuracy with my PM9 and K9 all in the kahr looooong but smooth trigger system. I shoot my K9 better than my PM9 and the k9 has the NYPD trigger in it that so many seem to think is a bad trigger system which IMO it is definitely not.If you can shoot a kahr with the elite trigger in it 3/8" travel, then you will have no issues with the NYPD trigger which is 1/2" travel a mere 1/8". But heh this is just ol jocko's opinion. I love my PM9 and it has never let me down and I do enjoy so much just going to the range by myself and pulling up a chair and shooting at 7-10 yards. With the G19 it is boring, as all go into about the same hole, but with the PM9 I strive every time out for even 2" groups.