Point Shooting

[skychief12]

I was reading Col Applegate's book on the "point shooting technique". Anyone have any experience with this?

BTW, the title is "Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back"

[jocko]

never read his book but with my xs big dot on my pM9 at 10 yards and under it is all about seeing the front sight fast and clearly. The other stuff just tends to fall in placw with point shooting. About like shooting a shotgun. The barrel tends to go where your eyes look. In a defense situation, I think point shooting is much much faster and u can get extremely accurate with it to.

[mr surveyor]

I haven't read the book, but am familiar with the term "point shooting". Unfortunately, it seems lately to have taken on two very different definitions. The one I am familiar with is that "point shooting" is a combination or instinctive "aiming", using nothing but a seasoned familiarity with the firearm and the front sight.....basically "pointing" the handgun as if it were a good fitting, shouldered shotgun. Fast, combat accuracy. The second defination floating around, using the term "point shooting", is the act of laying your index finger (as if "indexing") along the side of the pistol, activating the trigger with the middle finger, reducing your grip to the ring finger and pinkie. This method, supposedly" causes the shooter to "point" the pistol the same as if pointing with the index finger. Personally, I prefer the former defination of "point shooting" rather than the latter.


surv

[jocko]

definitely go with the "instinctive" aiming, that finger stuff, never worked or felt comfortble to me..

[mr surveyor]

which brings me back to the question of the current definition of "point shooting".

[jocko]

which brings me back to the question of the current definition of "point shooting".

think this finger pointing thing has just popped up in the last few years, so I tend to go with your first definiition of point shooting. Really makes no difference as to what the definition is, as both are basicaly different method. Guess one call each one what ever he wants...:third:

[mr surveyor]

yeah, the first definition is what I adhere to.... just wasn't sure what Skychief's book referenced to.

If the book refer's to what Jocko and I believe to be "point shooting", then I'm fer it. If it's the silly notion of placing your index finger on the frame along side the slide and firing with a two (in my case 1-1/2) finger grip, then I'm agin it.

There, that's my opinion:D


surv

[jeep45238]

Point and shoot without using the sights. Can be from any shooting position, be that by the hip, or fully extended, depending upon the circumstances.

I pretty much point shoot during IDPA matches, hardly use the sights. Treats me quite well out to about 15-20 yards, standard notch sights with a fiber optic front tube.

[Bawanna]

If Applegate had anything to do with it it was your first definition. He wasn't into any of this silly stuff and that 3rd finger trigger talk is just that, silly.
I think point and instinctive could be interchanged without notice.
Usually point shooting doesn't even involve sights at all, you shoot from the hip, or somewhere between there and sighted firing, familiarity with your weapon as Mr. Surv stated.

I guess if ones trigger finger were gone for whatever reason that 3rd finger shooting might be way better than no shooting at all but thats the only application I can think of. My 3rd finger ain't exactly up to snuff yet since that run in with the table saw last january so I'm taking good care of my correct trigger finger.

[jocko]

I do think that when we say point shooting, we in our sight picture see that front sight, just that we do not concentrate on it but on the target and at close range that is OK, out alittle further one needs to see that front sight clearly and the rest (back site and target) will all fall into place.

I shoot alot of skeet and it is all about point shooting but one always see's the end of the barrel in his picture also.

By the way I shoot skeet about as good as I shoot my PM9. It has to be those fooking guns, can't be me..

[skychief12]

If Applegate had anything to do with it it was your first definition. He wasn't into any of this silly stuff and that 3rd finger trigger talk is just that, silly.

Exactly Bawanna45cal. Col Applegate is talking about a continuum of aiming techniques based on the distance to the target. At the closer ranges he suggests focusing on the target only and describes how to bring the gun online without looking at the sights. Fine trigger control goes out the window using what he calls convulsive muscle contraction. He progresses to using the sights at longer ranges alone the continuum. He explains how to adjust to the bodies natural response to the stress of being in a gunfight. He uses the term "combat shooting" as opposed to "target shooting". His techniques were developed for the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) who were the basis for the Army's Special Forces AKA Green Berets.

[earle8888]

Agreed with Bawana, then your clarification, illuminates Applegates def, YEP!!! thats what CQC/Combat/ instinct shooting is.
I believe OSS was predicessor to the CIA

[Bawanna]

My mentor and hero Jeff Cooper was in the same era and areas as well. He also has several books discussing some of these things and the evolution of changing shooting strategies.
Ironically I did'nt care for the guy at first, thought he was an arrogant know it all but as I read his work and got addicted to Coopers Corner which I still sorely miss I found that he was quite intelligent and really did know it all. Everything he spoke he researched and experimented with.
He was quite opinionated (no crime there) and well rounded. Into sports cars, ballroom dancing, all kinds of stuff you wouldn't possibly associate with Jeff Cooper.

[skychief12]

So what I take from this is that some of you actually use these techniques and they are worth my trying to acquire.

[Bawanna]

So what I take from this is that some of you actually use these techniques and they are worth my trying to acquire.

Just my opinion but yes. Any skill that you can add to your defensive tool box has to be a good thing. It's just like people that focus on hits at 25 yards, thats great and to strive to attain that is a good thing.
But you also need to practice shooting at arms length holding a guy by the throat with one hand fast from the holster. Just an example, anything possible in real world settings. It's often said that a defensive shooting will happen very close and fast.
In lieu of my current transportation that most likely won't change anytime soon I'm limited to some of the stuff vertical people can practice. I've often longed for a wheelchair that could go sideways. The big plus to an electric is I can shoot and move to a certain degree. Sadly my left hand while just as nice looking as my right doesn't do anything right. I tried moving my controls to my left side so I could shoot right but I'm like a drunk driver.

[mr surveyor]

back to my original post..... since it's a discussion on the real true art of "point shooting", them I'm fer it!

I practice "point shooting" shooting steels at 40 yards (that's where the fixed targets are at my range) with my Ruger Mk II quite often, and save a mag or two for the carry guns to top off the range trip. The .22 cal will help develop good technique fairly inexpensively which will greatly improve success with the larger, defensive handguns. I have friends that get their grins and giggles by cutting bullet holes in cardboard at 7-15 yards. I like that too, but always try to finish a range trip with real defensive shooting techniques.


surv

[jimbar]

Little did I know it was called "point shooting", but as a young lad back in east Texas, I dropped a lot of dove and quail with my grandpa's single shot .410, or my dad's Winchester .20 gauge auto. It seemed natural to just point and shoot, pretty effective too.
As to the technique with pistols, I also practice this when at the range. I claim no expertise, or experience in actual gunfights, but have been told most happen within 7 to 10 ft. If so, with all the adrenlin, and nerves, I doubt concentrating on aiming with sights would enter my thoughts. Just point at the attacker, and shoot.
At the range that I am a member, drawing from the holster and firing is not allowed, except in competition, but I do practice at 10 ft or less, shooting from mid level from holster to chest, one hand and two so that I know I can do it. This is done at silhouette targets.

[mr surveyor]

I find a lot of similarities between shot gunning and point shooting handguns. In the rare occassion that one finds a shotgun that actually "fits", off the shelf. it will swing and shoot at eaxactly the "point" you intend the load to land. Some folks can pick up most any shotgun off the rack and make it perform, while others need some special "fitting" of the comb, offset, lop, etc. In my personal experience, handguns are no different. I have had to go through dozens of handguns to find the 3-4 that really fit my body geometry. I've had internet commandos tell me that there's absolutely no reason I shouldn't be able to properly handle "Brand X" handgun, given enough personal determination and willingness to practice. I have to call BS on that. In the words of the sleazy OJ attorney.... slightly modified for the purpose.... if the gun don't fit, you must quit.... and find a gun that works. I have carried (for "the field") j-frame snubs for several years, but due to the shape of the grip, and mainly the grip angle, couldn't shoot instinctively (a.k.a. "point shooting") worth a crap. I finally picked up a Ruger SP101, with a totally different grip angle, that tends to point perfectly natural for me, and I am hooked. The same goes for my CW9...it points natural for my body structure, as do all 1911 style grips. Large framed revolvers are automatically out for me, as well as long lop (and most all double stack) pistols due to my hand structure, and humpbacked revolver grips and exagerrated angle pistil grips just don't work with my hand/wrist. It's all a matter of "fit" to me, whether shotgun or handgun. If they don't feel like a natural extension of your hands or arms, they ain't gonna point naturally. As I've aged (seasoned), I have body parts that just don't work as well as they used to, particularly the ones I've abused over the years. The last couple of years my dove shooting abilities have dropped significantly due to reduced mobility of shoulder joints and neck. After dove season this year I did a bit of trading and picked up a Mossberg 500 "Bantam" model (not the tiny junior model) with a 13" lop.... almost identical to most rifles. At the range I found that I could swing that short stock gun as easily as pointing my finger. Basically the same gun as the "full sized 500", with nothing but a shorter stock (I happened to get a shorter barrel too for "snap shots"), and it shoots the same loads, at the same velocity as the "full sized 500". The point is, the gun fits and points naturally for me at this time in my current physical condition.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that point shooting is an art that requires a good, if not near perfect match of shooter and firearm to be successful. In my opinion it shouldn't take thousands of rounds down range if the gun "fits".

Just my opinions.... and they are worth the price of admission to the forum:D


surv:)

[skychief12]

if the gun don't fit, you must quit.... and find a gun that works.

Col Applegate covers the topic of the effect grip angle has when shoving a handgun at the target. His golden rule is "thou shalt not shove thy gun". His technique is to raise the arm in a motion similar to a pump handle with the wrist and elbow locked to align the barrel properly.

Do any of you have more or better sources for learning and training using these methods?

[Longitude Zero]

Do any of you have more or better sources for learning and training using these methods?

Whether you love him or hate him Gabe Suarez at WarriorTalk is HUGE on point shooting. Also Look at Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan's writings. However do not take that as the last word, take what they have that works for you and also look to current practioneers as they have valuable points to offer.

I always take what new I learn and incorporate it into the old and essentially come up with a system or manner that works for me.

[garyb]

Point shooting or point & shoot has been around for a long time and is a good thing to know well. There is a way to dry fire practice the technique. See my thread on Daily 5 Minute Dry Fire Practice which will add over 30 hours of practice per year with no ammo. The point and shoot step involves what is called indexing. Indexing ingrains this instinctive technique by building muscle memory for unconscious aiming. However, there are other things that should be practiced with indexing because they all work harmoniously to achieve perfect and rapid results. If you are interested in practicing the indexing technique for aiming and putting it all together, I suggest you refer to the thread. It is a simple, fun and effective way to dry fire practice with your handgun 5 minutes a day, while building good skills and never firing a shot (until you go to the range). It applies Zen breathing and as you all know, breathing and shooting go together. By using your internal rhythm timing through breathing, combining it with good form, indexing (unconscious aiming), trigger control, draw and mag exchanges. Even the samurai used and wrote about rhythm timing and breathing. Read the Book of Five Rings, by Musashi. Breathing correctly is important, as is indexing. The samurai knew his sword instinctively, just as the point shooter must know his gun for this technique to work reliably. The CTL is an excellent tool for this type of practice. Just my 2 cents. Good luck.

[skychief12]

See my thread on Daily 5 Minute Dry Fire Practice which will add over 30 hours of practice per year with no ammo.

GaryB I did a search for "Daily 5 Minute Dry Fire Practice" and this site returned only this post. Can you add a link or educate me on "how to search"?

[jeep45238]

Drills I use....

http://www.mattburkett.com/flashfiles/dryfire.html


pistol-training.com Drills (http://pistol-training.com/drills)

[gpo1956]

Little did I know it was called "point shooting", but as a young lad back in east Texas, I dropped a lot of dove and quail with my grandpa's single shot .410, or my dad's Winchester .20 gauge auto. It seemed natural to just point and shoot, pretty effective too.
As to the technique with pistols, I also practice this when at the range. I claim no expertise, or experience in actual gunfights, but have been told most happen within 7 to 10 ft. If so, with all the adrenlin, and nerves, I doubt concentrating on aiming with sights would enter my thoughts. Just point at the attacker, and shoot.
At the range that I am a member, drawing from the holster and firing is not allowed, except in competition, but I do practice at 10 ft or less, shooting from mid level from holster to chest, one hand and two so that I know I can do it. This is done at silhouette targets.

Exactly, its long been said that you "aim" a pistol or rifle, you "point and swing" a shotgun.

[skychief12]

GaryB I did a search for "Daily 5 Minute Dry Fire Practice" and this site returned only this post. Can you add a link or educate me on "how to search"?

Success! I did fined GaryB's link after a little work. For anyone still looking it is here:

http://kahrtalk.com/ccw-tactics-training/4793-daily-5-min-dry-fire-practice.html

[garyb]

gpo,
Your statement well summarized this issue. I agree that technically it is still aiming. Yet, it can be practiced in a way to improve muscle memory so that when you point, you are aimed. With a CTL the point and shoot method is easier...the dot shows the aim. It is a fast and effective tool that works synergistically with the point and the sights. But that is another topic which moves into likes, dislikes, marketing, etc.... and not one I really wanted to get into for the point and shoot types. I am just meaning that you can practice point method through indexing, still have the sights and as a third tool a CTL is beneficial.

[earle8888]

FunnyFarm training in the OLD Days was a grease pencil or lipstik circle on the mirror in your room and draw point!!! how close was the barrel in the mirror to the circle you had drawn???? Also, dry fire as you point at the target. This means both eyes are open and focusing on the point, not the weapon or attachment. Whith practice I got to draw with eyes closed and stop the open eyes and see how close I was. THIS IS mussle Memory. Like the new way with CTL the best!!!!

[garyb]

Exactly earle8888. The close eye draw and instinctive aim (or point - whatever you choose to call it) and then open the eyes to see where you are at, is indexing - which builds the muscle memory. I also agree that the CTL point and shoot method is the best. Great tool for practice - trigger, indexing, dry fire....everything!

[JLeephoto]

I have to admit I haven't read this entire thread yet, but wanted to point out that Wikipedia actually has a good break-down of Point Shooting vs. Jeff Cooper's "Modern Technique." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Modern_Technique_of_the_Pistol
My understand that originally, "Point Shooting" meant firing from the draw at the hip one handed as in old west style shooting but that Applegate and others revised it over the years. I think most of us have adapted the "Flash Sight Picture Technique" which seems to combine the early idea of point shooting with the more detailed "Modern Technique."
That said, I suck at them all.

[JLeephoto]

To Mr. Surveyor's point: I took a course from Lucky McDaniel as a teen shooting shotguns to improve my dove hunting. He taught what he called "instinctive shooting" that was all about focus on the target and not on the gun. He actually started you with a sightless red rider tossing metal discs in the air and getting you to ping them, and progressed from there. One of the things that was near the end of the course he would hold my shotgun, yell pull from three clays to be launched, and then hand me my gun because he didn't want me to take the time to acquire a proper site picture, using the shotgun was suppose to be subconscious. I was the best shot in the dove field that season but alas, I have a short memory.
Lucky McDaniel link: Lucky McDaniel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_McDaniel)

[earle8888]

Read the Wiki description. Stating again that the requirements of a pistol for Military or Police differs in some ways to the CCW for self defense. That said here is the ultimate, by some, Quick site, was designed for concealed carry and based on the premise that minimum shots are required and police and others have the duty of gun fights.

Firearms Forum Image - Guttersnipe sight - From: MarkFreburg (http://www.outdoors.net/Firearms/Image/11186)

This really a nifty site, maybe we could talk Kahr into have some available for their pistols!!!

[OldLincoln]

I use instinctive P&S (not the finger thing) out of necessity and have grown proficient enough so that BG's are in trouble if in the 5-7 yard range. My necessity is something you all should consider as you age.

I could see the color of a ground squirrels eyes at 30yds most of my life, and now I can't even see the sights unless I switch glasses, which ain't gonna happen when I need it. I read a bit about the C.A.R. method of self defense (http://www.pointshooting.com/1anewcar.htm) and have taken the "shoot as soon as you can level the gun at them and again as you bring it up and head shot when you see the sights" (only I don't see them much). They say the recoil will raise the shot placement so think of it like raising a zipper.

I think most have shot from the hip onetime or another for fun. Try it again from 5 yards and you will hit the COM after adjusting for the initial low shot.

PS: Here's a video of C.A.R. (http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR/car.html) in action.

[earle8888]

Here is an interesting site re: "self Defense" shooting

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4340674

[robmcd]

I have taken courses in both Point Shooting and Flash Sight Picture. Point Shooting is normally done by drawing the gun and firing from the hip, and seems well suited to snubbies at close distance. I am more accurate using Flash Sight Picture in which you pick up just the front sight in your line of vision as you concentrate on the target before firing. In this case, your arms are extended. It also helps to point both of your thumbs forward and in the direction of the intended target. If your front sight is anywhere near the rear sight notch you will hit the target with acceptable accuracy. The idea is to place a center of mass shot quickly.

[f44life]

if you played paintball before thats all about point shooting

[garyb]

Fast and easy to use a CTL and point the dot. This tool will also help to build the muscle memory needed for this type of shooting, especially through dry fire practice.

[jocko]

I have taken courses in both Point Shooting and Flash Sight Picture. Point Shooting is normally done by drawing the gun and firing from the hip, and seems well suited to snubbies at close distance. I am more accurate using Flash Sight Picture in which you pick up just the front sight in your line of vision as you concentrate on the target before firing. In this case, your arms are extended. It also helps to point both of your thumbs forward and in the direction of the intended target. If your front sight is anywhere near the rear sight notch you will hit the target with acceptable accuracy. The idea is to place a center of mass shot quickly.

heard of the term flash sight. to me point shooting it just what it means, point and shoot. not from the hip. Shooting a shotgun is point shooting so why would the definition be any different for handgun shooting. Not arguining with u but that was the first I ever heard of flash sight terminology.