Failure to feed. extractor tension.

[Jim K]

What is factory specification for extractor tension?

KP9093A. Measured 64 OZ. Shortened rear extractor spring PIN 0.045" .

Extractor tension is now 32Oz. and pistol feeds perfectly. no problems after 500 + rounds.

I am not happy with the experience I had with my Kahr pistol.

Quote from Kahr service:


Some info they just do not want us to give out. Please let me know if there is anything else that I can help you out with.

Ian Burr

[kahrcrazy]

They dont give out tech info like that because they dont want people modifying their pistols, it voids your warranty. Kahr is pretty strict on stuff like that.

[jocko]

What is factory specification for extractor tension?

KP9093A. Measured 64 OZ. Shortened rear extractor spring PIN 0.045" .

Extractor tension is now 32Oz. and pistol feeds perfectly. no problems after 500 + rounds.

I am not happy with the experience I had with my Kahr pistol.

Quote from Kahr service:


Some info they just do not want us to give out. Please let me know if there is anything else that I can help you out with.

Ian Burr

would you want to shorten the rear extractor spring pin??????? Un less you know more than the designers at kahr, it makes no sense to me..

[Jim K]

would you want to shorten the rear extractor spring pin??????? Un less you know more than the designers at kahr, it makes no sense to me..

Jocko,

I shortened the rear extractor spring PIN, part number 027P9 in order to lower the exractor tension. The extractor tension was way too high on my P9 which caused a failure to feed problem.

A new pin costs $1.10 purchased from Kahr. This is not a modification, it is a REPAIR. I make no claim to know better than someone who "designed" the pistol. I merely ask what the engineers had in mind when they put this idea to ink. My question remains; what is the factory specification for extractor tension of my P9 pistol? I would like to know if this is a quality issue or an engineering issue.

Don't tell me about that "break-in" BS. A $700 pistol should be 100 % reliable right out of the box. Do you have to drive a new car 10,000 miles to make sure the wheels don't fall off?

Now for the range report. I have fired my Kahr P9 over 1000 rounds since lowering the extractor tension. No FTF's, no extraction problems. It is NOW 100% reliable.

I could not care less about warranty. I would rather have a reliable weapon.

Again, what is the factory specification for extractor tension? Is there one?

[500KV]

Jim K..
I'm just curious.
How are you measuring your extractor tension?

I've seen gunsmiths use an extractor tension gauge and
a trigger pull scale. (I think)

[jocko]

Jim K, u do seem to have all the answers, you should send your resume to Kahr??

[Jim K]

Jocko,

I don't have all the answers, only one question.

AGAIN, what is the factory specification for extractor tension of my P9 pistol?

Please read the thread. I know what works. I just want to know what Kahr specifies.

Does Kahr have any answers at all? They seem to be nice people, but they don't seem able to answer one small question.

Regards

[Jim K]

Jim K..
I'm just curious.
How are you measuring your extractor tension?

I've seen gunsmiths use an extractor tension gauge and
a trigger pull scale. (I think)
500KV,

Extractor tension was measured with a
Weigand Extractor Tension Gauge Set, Brownells part number: 957-101-000
and a Lyman Trigger Pull Gauge.

Takes all the guess work out of the problem.

[500KV]

500KV,

Extractor tension was measured with a
Weigand Extractor Tension Gauge Set, Brownells part number: 957-101-000
and a Lyman Trigger Pull Gauge.

Takes all the guess work out of the problem.

O.K. Thanks.
That method I'd seen probably isn't too accurate.

(ETA) Well after a second look, I guess that's the method I saw them using.

[Jim K]

I was ready to saw my Kahr in half. Now I love it.

[paul0660]

Jim, what kind of failure to feed exactly? Thanks, and I don't know the answer to your question.

[Jim K]

Paul0660,

My P9 did not push the cartridge fully into battery. The slide would stop about 1/4 inch short of full foward.

I works perfectly now. I'm not trading my P9 for anything (now).

Best Regards, Jim K

[paul0660]

so Jim, why did you consider extractor pressure as a solution to the FTF? Was there some obvious interference? Or do you think the extractor was causing the round to become cocked and jam? I have looked at my K9 closely, and a lot of stuff does happen in that last 1/4 inch. Thanks

[Jim K]

Paul 0660,

The FTF problem I was having had no visible cause. The extractor was not becoming cocked.

I tried different ammo, different magazines, polished the feed lips and feed ramp, I even changed the barrel.

Extractor tension was the last thing I checked. Lowering the pressure caused my P9 to function perfectly. I was about to give up on it.

My P9 works perfectly. I don't know what the Kahr engineers had in mind for extractor pressure but it works now and I'll have to check other Kahr extractors (on working pistols) to know what's correct.

I have fired over 1,000 rounds through my P9 since lowering the extractor tension and it worked without ANY problems.

Regards, Jim K

[Jim K]

Paul 0660,

I forgot to mention that I changed the recoil spring to a 20 pound spring.
That did not fix the problem.

I guess if you keep changing parts you eventually find the problem.

Regards, Jim K

[paul0660]

Very interesting, Jim. They ARE very Swiss watch like, and a little bit off is enough to make them screw up. I like my K9 very much. My CW9 never really felt comfortable (two trips back to the factory, and an at home mag catch/spring replacement). I think firearm history will recall the original metal designs as groundbreaking and enviable, and the plastic models as expeditious marketing.....not that a vast majority of them work fine.

[Jim K]

Paul 0660,

I wonder if the same people do Q.C. and assemble parts into firearms at Kahr. I don't see anything wrong with the design of my pistol except I'm not a fan of the patented extractor. I like the tried & true 1911 style extractor better, but that's just me.

I gotta say again that I love my Kahr now that it works. The folks at Kahr's service department are very nice but were of limited help in MY case.

Lastly, that 200 round break in thing, what marketing genius came up with that? I'm calling BS!
It ain't a car and it ain't a swiss watch. Fit of two parts is not accomplished by rubbing them together. I can hear my machine shop boss, Dutch, laughing his you know what off. Don't rely on the customer to do your QC for you. It's a sure way to get a bad name.

Regards, Jim K

[DakPara]

As an engineer, I see zero reason why the extractor tension spec should be some kind of trade secret. Just the opposite.

They should publish the tension spec, dimensions, the approved method of measuring, and the approved method of adjusting (if adjustment is approved versus just parts replacement).

There is no excuse.

In fact, they should publish everything any gunsmith needs to work on the gun properly and independently. I bet "Cylinder and Slide" knows the specs.

This modification by C&S is even on the Kahr Website, included in "Custom Package #1"

"Radius and tension the extractor for improved feeding, extraction and ejection reliability".

[jocko]

ONE SHOULD SEE IF C & S would devulge what info they have on the extractor tension and what gauges they use to test out with also, just clipping coils is not the answer...

I can understand why kahr doesn't give out that info also. they realy don't want people jacking with their guns, a very few can actually jack a gun and make it right. My two cents anyhow. I doubt if any other gun companies will release all this info either. an engineer might understand the workings of certain things, but the general layman will only screw things up ....

[Jim K]

Jocko,
I don't think clipping coils is a good idea. The mechanism in question consists of a cast metal extractor, 2 pins and a spring. This is not rocket science lost to all but a small priesthood who work at Kahr.

I maintain 30 million dollar helicopters, fly small airplanes and I am a licensed avionics tech. What's the big deal about extractor pressure? Do you suggest I send my helicopter to Sikorsky every time it has an issue? C'mon, get real. The helicopter manufacturer supplies us with everything we need to maintain the machine. What in blue blazes is wrong with Kahr that they will not supply critical engineering data to maintain a MUCH simpler mechanism?

1st: My P9 did not function.
2nd: I shortened the rear extractor spring PIN (cost a little more than 1 dollar).
3rd: It works now.
4th: I want to cross check my results with what the Kahr engineers designed.
5th: Your assumptions about the incompetance of the common man is arrogant and insulting. I think you lived a sheltered life.

Kindest Regards, Jim K

[ltxi]

Jocko,
I don't think clipping coils is a good idea. The mechanism in question consists of a cast metal extractor, 2 pins and a spring. This is not rocket science lost to all but a small priesthood who work at Kahr.

I maintain 30 million dollar helicopters, fly small airplanes and I am a licensed avionics tech. What's the big deal about extractor pressure? Do you suggest I send my helicopter to Sikorsky every time it has an issue? C'mon, get real. The helicopter manufacturer supplies us with everything we need to maintain the machine. What in blue blazes is wrong with Kahr that they will not supply critical engineering data to maintain a MUCH simpler mechanism?

1st: My P9 did not function.
2nd: I shortened the rear extractor spring PIN (cost a little more than 1 dollar).
3rd: It works now.
4th: I want to cross check my results with what the Kahr engineers designed.
5th: Your assumptions about the incompetance of the common man is arrogant and insulting. I think you lived a sheltered life.

Kindest Regards, Jim K

Fascinating.....gotta say, tho, that I don't usually let my aircraft mechanic let alone the avionics guy work on my guns....or vice versa.

[marsingbob]

a great post. I have been struggling for two years with what I suspect is the same problem, and had pretty much come to the point that I thought it was extractor tension and was struggling what to do short of dealing with Kahr's spotty repair record.
I was considering cutty a coil and did not like the idea. The pin is cheap and easily replaced, so it is a no brainer to try it. I have nothing like a guage, so I will "cut and try". Can always replace the pin.
I understand a measurement is not going to tell me how shortening the pin on my guy will necessarily affect tension, but it would be helpful to know about how much you shortened yours, or the overall length of the shortened pin. Any estimate would be better than nothing.

Thanks for sharing you experience, and for any info you can provide. (And of course it is ridiculous for Kahr to refuse to provide the tension).

[Jim K]

Itxi,

The P9 pistol is mine, not yours.

It did not work. Now it does.

I need data to verify that what I have is in conformance with what the engineers had in mind. Complicated, no?

I noticed that you ended your message with "NRA patron" instead of "NRA member". Do you own firearms?

Regards, Jim K (NRA member)

[Jim K]

Marsingbob,

I hope my words help you with your problem.

I posted the tools used to measure the extractor tension on my pistol earlier in this thread. I want to add that you should make sure that you are not measuring a burr or sharp edge on the extractor which will give you a false measurement. Be carefull not to polish the wrong edge or surface of the extractor.
Test fire your firearm with many rounds after your repairs to make sure it is reliable.
If you mess something up buy new parts from Kahr. The parts are cheap and the people at Kahr are friendly.

If it's broke then it can only get fixed. Parts are cheap and it ain't rocket science.

Good Luck, Jim K.

[jocko]

Jocko,
I don't think clipping coils is a good idea. The mechanism in question consists of a cast metal extractor, 2 pins and a spring. This is not rocket science lost to all but a small priesthood who work at Kahr.

I maintain 30 million dollar helicopters, fly small airplanes and I am a licensed avionics tech. What's the big deal about extractor pressure? Do you suggest I send my helicopter to Sikorsky every time it has an issue? C'mon, get real. The helicopter manufacturer supplies us with everything we need to maintain the machine. What in blue blazes is wrong with Kahr that they will not supply critical engineering data to maintain a MUCH simpler mechanism?

1st: My P9 did not function.
2nd: I shortened the rear extractor spring PIN (cost a little more than 1 dollar).
3rd: It works now.
4th: I want to cross check my results with what the Kahr engineers designed.
5th: Your assumptions about the incompetance of the common man is arrogant and insulting. I think you lived a sheltered life.

Kindest Regards, Jim K


it sounds to me like your "bragging" . You undoubteably have alot more "expertise" than most of us or you would not be where u are at. I guess my point is that I would not want you jacking with my helicopter but would want only what Sikorsy specifies. No insult was intented, if u took it that way, sorry about that. again I stand by my comment that "jacking" with a gun is normally not a good thing. and shortening a extractor spring IMO is jacking with a gun, opr shortening the extractor pin... If it works fine but being that 99% seem to work fine withthe factory spring in there, then something else was causing it but your shortening of the extractor pin just worked around the issue. My two cents worth..

[Jim K]

Jocko,

I'm not bragging since my qualifcations as an A&P, IA, Pilot, and FCC licensed tech stand on their own.

Again, why is Kahr reluctant to publish the correct extractor tension for their product? Without this it is hard to determine if there is a quality issue or an engineering issue. Are there parts that are manufactured out of tolerance?

Shortening the rear extractor spring PIN costs nothing and if you have to reverse the repair, it costs $1.10. In my case, shortening the PIN made my pistol work flawlessly. I DID NOT CLIP THE SPRING.

I have lived with the FARC in the jungles of Colombia years ago and they could maintain their weapons with just about nothing. Now you imply that there is some thing mysterious about making something broke fixed.

I SIMPLY NEED TO KNOW WHAT KAHR SPECIFIES AS THE CORRECT EXTRACTOR PRESSURE FOR MY P9.

You do not seem to understand my desire to be sure that MY P9 conforms to what the engineers at Kahr had in mind.

Kindest Regards, Jim K

[mr.72]

Recent debate regarding the firing pin protrusion spec yielded the same quantity (0) of information from Kahr.

My conspiracy-theorist suspicion is that Kahr is guarding this information because they want to avoid a bunch of kitchen-table gunsmiths sending Kahr pistols back to them for repairs for out-of-spec pistols that otherwise function flawlessly. So for example, if their firing pin protrusion spec is .042" and I measure mine and it's .032" then I may well send the gun back to Kahr for a replacement striker or other repair, when perhaps it functions just fine with only .032" protrusion.

However I agree, they should release these specs and let the chips fall where they may. Nobody is going to go measuring this stuff unless they have a problem. Certainly few people are going to send fully-functional guns back just because they are mildly out of spec. Maybe I am arrogant but I actually think that if I had access to the specs I could have fixed my own CW9 with $10 worth of parts but instead Kahr insisted that I send it back TWICE, spend $100+ on ammo to test it, and they replaced two barrels AND the entire slide before finally fixing it.

I find it hard to believe that a gun that is within spec is going to malfunction so consistently. So releasing the spec will only aid in diagnosing problems with guns and save Kahr money in the long run.

IMHO.

[marsingbob]

Thanks again Jim. As you said "it aint rocket science". The Kahr cannot be more unreliable than it is now, and I will run a few hundred rounds thru it before I trust it.

I am always surprised by the people who are so protective of the right to own guns and so terrified of working on them. A gun is a machine--a relatively simple machine by today's standards. Sure they can hurt you and you have to use care and judgment. I have been doing it as an amateur for over 50 years and it has produced a lot of satisfaction and some better guns. If someone does not want to do it, that is their choice, but why the lecture?

I you want to consider something really dangerous if misused, consider the typical propane fired barbeque or portable heater. I know three people--usually careful people--who have died or been horribly burned when they got careless.

[jocko]

Jim K.

evidently kahr is not going to give u that information, you may think they own you that right to know, evidently they don't. You fixed your gun, that is good. clipping the pin is almost the same as clipping the spring, you shortened it to relieve spring pressure. One serves the other, cost to replace about the same..


probably beating a dead horse here also as 99% have no extractor issues, ...

[paul0660]

This discussion has gotten stupid. mr.72 is right, I think, in this age of the personal injury lawyer, Kahr is afraid that publishing specs is the same as "go do it". They already have enough to do, without owners sending their pistols back to get re-fixed.

I appreciate Jim K's complete narration of a way to fix a problem, it might help anyone. I do think his narration of his certs didn't add to the discussion, because it was obvious he knew a micrometer from a yardstick anyway. All it did was upset jocko, more, again.

Please remember the very best internet posts are the ones you spend some time on, read, and realise you are just going to make it worse, and delete.

[ltxi]

Itxi,

The P9 pistol is mine, not yours.

It did not work. Now it does.

I need data to verify that what I have is in conformance with what the engineers had in mind. Complicated, no?

I noticed that you ended your message with "NRA patron" instead of "NRA member". Do you own firearms?

Regards, Jim K (NRA member)


Would NRA Patron Member make it all better? If so, you got it. NRA member at some level or another since 1959.

Yep, I do own firearms......more than a few

[jocko]

This discussion has gotten stupid. mr.72 is right, I think, in this age of the personal injury lawyer, Kahr is afraid that publishing specs is the same as "go do it". They already have enough to do, without owners sending their pistols back to get re-fixed.

I appreciate Jim K's complete narration of a way to fix a problem, it might help anyone. I do think his narration of his certs didn't add to the discussion, because it was obvious he knew a micrometer from a yardstick anyway. All it did was upset jocko, more, again.

Please remember the very best internet posts are the ones you spend some time on, read, and realise you are just going to make it worse, and delete.

ur comments are right, it doesn't upset me in the slightest, although I have been know to argue over a fruitless point, Again I know a micrometer from a yard stick (I think they both measure things???:33:) BUT then, I never lived with the FARC's either:confused:

[Jim K]

Get me down.

A close friend presented me with his CW9 yesterday which had the same problem I experienced. He requested that I do the same treatment to his pistol that I applied to mine. I did. It worked.

If a poor campesino in the Colombian sticks can repair his weapon as well as a person well qualified to maintain aircraft, what's the big deal? It ain't rocket science.

I asked for data to verify that the firearm is in conformance with what the engineers had in mind. I received flack from someone who wrote that I should not "jack" with my pistol. NO USEFULL ANSWERS WHERE PROVIDED.

Now I present another question:

What's wrong with messing with something that does not work? Is the fix a work around for another problem? What problem could that be?

Regards to everyone, Jim K

[jocko]

humm, what a coincedence????????

[Jim K]

Must be that 1% that don't work. Hmmmm.

[jocko]

Must be that 1% that don't work. Hmmmm.

a FARC owned it and messed with it???humm:boink:

[paul0660]

Jim K, it is time for you to post some pictures.

[Jim K]

= Armed Revolutionary Forces of Colombia.

Mostly poor, non political campesinos caught up in a decades old political struggle.
The point is that they are poor and uneducated but very resourceful. The ones I was aquainted with could fix firearms.

You protest that I should not "jack with" a pistol which is non functional. You provide no answers and suggest that my fix may be a "work around" for another problem. My question stands; what could that be?

Please provide some helpful information. My purpose is not to ruin your day but it seems you protest too much.

I received your private message. I have thick skin so don't worry.

Kindest Regards, Jim K

[jocko]

protest??me, no way, u can't ruin my day but I bet one of those FARC's could.

[paul0660]

Jim were you, or are you now Gecko45?

[Jim K]

Paul 0660,

What pictures are you interested in? I have to see how to post photos to this forum. Perhaps I can email them to you? The old ones are scans of old photos.


Regards, Jim

[paul0660]

Photos of the P9 dissembly, the FARC, and I am wondering if the extractor pins on your and your friends pistol were originally the same length.

[Jim K]

Paul 0660,

The rear pin on my P9 measured .451" before trimming. Measured .406" after.

My friends' rear extractor pin measured .450" before trimming and .420" after trimming.

Both foward pins were the same length.

I had no way to measure the spring rates so I used "cut & try" until the extractor pressure was reduced to Aprox. 32 OZ. I don't want to reduce the pressure further and risk failure to extract problems. Both pistols feed and extract flawlessly now. Still, I'd feel warm and fuzzy if Kahr would provide me with a simple Spec.

I get the idea that they are trying to hide something. I suppose that I could find the extremes were failure to feed starts at one end of extractor pressure and failure to extract starts (or the extractor falls out) at the other end. I would set the pressure in the middle.

Kahr does not owe me anything but I question the failure to provide data. Does this data exist?

Send me your personal email address on private mail and I'll send you some photos.

Best Regards, Jim

[Jim K]

Paul 0660,

No, I have never used another alias. I'll Google that name to see what you mean.

Jim K

[mr surveyor]

Paul 0660,

No, I have never used another alias. I'll Google that name to see what you mean.

Jim K




uuuuhhhhhooohhhhhhh

[johnh]

Okay, this is becoming a personal attack rather than any sort of valid technical discussion. Thread killed. I remind members this forum requires participants to treat each other with civility at all times.

John