IDPA Rule

[garyb]

I was speaking to a very experienced and advanced IDPA competitor and friend of mine who is training me for IDPA. This week I mentioned to him that I was thinking about porting my relatively new PM40 sometime down the road, but wanted to keep my warranty intact until I was assured that everything was hunkydory with it. Please Note: This information is NOT in any way directed against porting nor against nor toward those that prefer to port their handguns. It is not in any way submitted to stimulate any argument. I happen to think that porting could serve useful purposes and like I stated I was considering porting my PM40. However, I want to compete with the gun I carry and my friend directed me to the IDPA rules. I am respectfully submitting this information for constructive purposes and not intending to insult anyone. Should anyone be considering to use a ported handgun for IDPA...FYI:


"SSP Division: Double Action, Double Action Only, or Safe Action and be of 9mm or larger caliber, readily availabe on dealer shelves, have an annual production run of 2000 units, and pistol with magazine must fit in a box measuring 8-3/4" x 6" x 1-5/8".

No external modifications other than sights and grips will be permitted.
Non-Inclusive list of EXCLUDED modifications: lists "porting of barrels (factory or aftermarket)"
Enhanced Service Pistol (ESP) also lists as an EXCLUSION the porting of barrels and Compensators.
Custom Defensive Pistol (CDP) also lists the same Exclusion of Ported barrels and compensators.

Specifically excluded in all divisions as stated on page 15 is "compensators of any type including hybrid or ported barrels, ..."

[jlottmc]

Interesting, wonder why they dis-allow ported barrels. Only reason I can think of is some one, some where was stupid, or overly obnoxious. That's the usual culprit for things like that. I'll see what I can find.

[garyb]

I am not sure what the reason is that they don't allow ported barrels in a class jlottmc. ???? When I read the rules for myself it said that the board or directors, whatever authority who decide the rules, belabored the discussion on ported barrels and decided that there was no intention to ever allow ported barrels into a class.

My personal opinion is that having a ported barrel for CCW has become more and more of a desireable advantage. I don't have one yet, but I probably will find some way around this. In fact, I am considering porting it (eventually) and purchasing a second barrel for IDPA competition. In this way, I can do a first hand comparison between the advantages of ported and unported. I know that I can still shoot the ported barrel, but my score will not qualify. I'd be in a class all by myself. In this way, I would have my score with and without ported barrel. Interesting comparison. If I find the ported barrel reduces my time and improves my score, all the better for CCW. If I shoot for score without the ported barrel, all the more practice for when I carry with a ported barrel. At least in theory, it would seem to work this way. However, I don't know if having the slide ported will automatically disqualify my scores. I need to look into this.

The IDPA has recommended allowing a class for CTL's, but no movement yet. I doubt if this will happen. I may need to remove my CTL to compete. Or they may accept me shooting with electrical tape over the CTL.

IDPA is a new game for me. There are real gamers in the IDPA. Some shoot with what they carry. Others have special equipment to get better scores with guns they would normally not carry. However, It is all great practice for gun handling.

Again, I am not intending to create an argument or take a position for nor against IDPA, porting, or CTL's. Just a discussion on the IDPA rules relative to some CCW modifications and equipment.

Just my thoughts.

[jlottmc]

I see more and more pistols getting ported, I have to wonder what IDPA has against them. I forgot to ask earlier, I also don't see why covering the laser would be a problem, then again, I haven't played gun games like that in several years.

[garyb]

IDPA official sanctioned shoots are strict. I checked with the president of a local gun club and he said he was not certain, but he saw no reason why I could not shoot my pm40 with the CTL covered. However, he said that he does not run the IDPA shoots and I would need to check at the time I registered. I will learn alot more this year when I start shooting. Like any sport, each has it's own crazy rules and when we really get involved, we begin to learn the whys. We may agree with some things and not agree with others. Additionally, people (in general) are slow to change. I remember in the archery industry, the die hard tradional recurve and long bow shooters wanted nothing to do with compounds. Some of the traditional archers still, to this day, stay with the older style equipment. The same is probably true with the IDPA group who have a hard time changing. I try to be open to new ideas, but sometimes it is hard for me too. We all have a little bit of that in us, one way or another. I hope to learn more about the porting issue as well as other quirky IDPA rules. If you go to their site and read their forum stuff, there are tons of issues regarding the rules (holsters, mag holders, sights, weight, etc...).

[jocko]

I see more and more pistols getting ported, I have to wonder what IDPA has against them. I forgot to ask earlier, I also don't see why covering the laser would be a problem, then again, I haven't played gun games like that in several years.

simpler to keep it simple to. If a person is dead serious about this IDPA stuff, he will abide by their rules and more than likely have the gun that causes no rules violations. if they don't want to allow anyone on their range to shoot their course, EVEN FOR FUN AND NOT COMPETITION, then to me it is their monetary loss and I just don't know of to many gun ranges that are just dead nuts PROFITABLE.

to me would just be so easy to charge what ever they charge with the understanding that if you have anything illegal on there, u will not be competiting but just shooting the course and for that sir, please pay $35 in advance and shoot away and enjoy. #1 If I liked it that much I might come back next time with my firends and maybe the right gun to have alittle competition. But piss me off and I won't come back and I certanly will tell my friends about it. Course what makes sense to me certainly doeksn't to some either. U know once they put my $35 in the register drawer, they can't tell it any different from a registered IDPA shooters $35..

[garyb]

Yea, that is very true Jocko. I know they will allow me to shoot with ported barrel and CTL, but not in a designated class for a score....at least that is what I am led to believe in my "fetal stage" of this game. I don't know a whole lot about it yet. I don't even know if they will keep my score if I do not qualify for it. I am hoping that I can shoot without ported to compete for score, but then shoot without ported to compare my score and times (even if the score does not qualify for the competion). I am hoping to progress with my CCW ability. I would think practice during competition without the ported barrel would help me shoot better when I put in that ported barrel, but I may learn something different. It would be interesting to me, to see if I could get even better when I use the ported barrel...at least it makes sense in theory. (Likewise, I could compare ballistics between the two barrels...just for the info.) Anyway, I still need to find out if they will not allow me to compete for score/time just because the slide is ported and the barrel is not. If I get the slide AND barrel ported (obviously necessary to do both), then there is no turning back and I could not use that gun for score. I don't know the answer to this, nor do I know what they will do with my CTL (remove it or tape it). Either way, I have been to IDPA to observe and I am certain that the competion and training will greatly improve my shooting skills with my CCW. It is ALOT of fun too. They do have a BUG shoot now and again. My primary interest in all of this is to have fun and improve my CCW. The IDPA guys locally are really VERY helpful. Their goal is clearly to have a growing interest in their sport. But I can see via reading the info on their site and forums, the IDPA does have their rule quirks, just like any sport does. I just need to learn what goes and what does not go. Any IDPA guys that can chime in here to help add some good info for the discussion????? THANKS.

[Longitude Zero]

A very important basis of IDPA rules was to make it more affordable for the "average" shooter. Also they wanted to get rid of the "equipment race/gamesmanship" of the other shooting disciplines.

IPSC had become an unrealistic and barely recognizable game that had less and less bearing on reality as time went on. IDPA was an attempt to return to the roots of defensive shooting competition.

For instance the Steel Challenge has NO bearing on any defensive use of a F/A This is not meant as in insult to the discipline but a factual observation.

[garyb]

That all makes sense Longitude Zero and thanks for your input. I hope to learn more about IDPA this year. I have learned that there are two distinct groups in IDPA: Those that use what they carry and the other group being the gamers who do make equipment adjustments for score. It is a fine line and just like in any sport it seems like human nature to push the rules. I feel that IDPA is excellent practice and training. Guys are very helpful and it is alot of fun. I am looking forward to getting started this year. I enjoy the competition and camraderie. thanks.

[Longitude Zero]

garyb I am glad I was able to help. If you want competition with mandated stock equipment give the GSSF a try. I have really enjoyed that type of competition.

The gamers are there but in their own narrowly defined groupings.

[Caswell Ranch]

IDPA guy here ready to chime in, how can I help ?

[garyb]

As I understand it, IDPA was designed to compete with the gun you carry, which is what I do. I've told my buddy, who is very competitive in IDPA, that his use of a larger stock Glock 35 for competition is kind of like "gameing" but this is an insulting word to use in this case, because if the handgun "fits in the box" used to measure handguns that qualify, then it is considered a legal competition handgun for IDPA. There are other requirements as well. Like a vast number of IDPA competitors who do not carry their competition gun, my buddy does not carry his 35....he carries his 27. He feels his 35 shoots exactly like his 27. I ask him why he does not compete with his 27 if this is true. The reality is that the shorter sight plane on the 27 will drop his scores. Bottom line is that the longer barrel and longer sight plane improves scores. I've been shooting my PM40 and my scores are lower than the gaming guns, but my scores continue to improve. This is my purpose with IDPA and proves to me that competing with my carry gun is making me better with it. However, I am quite certain that using my PM40 for competition will keep me from being a top shooter for a long time. As long as use other guys scores as targets to achieve and shoot for, I will keep improving with my carry gun. In this way, the IDPA is serving to improve my gun handling and accuracy with my carry gun.... and it's a lot of fun. To compete with subcompact carry guns, you can not get too wrapped up with your scores, other than to use them as references for your own improvement. Do your best and ignore the rest.

[Bongo Boy]

This thread is quite old, but I thought I'd add something just the same. IDPA is a game in the sense that we hope everyone abides by the rule book, shoots their best, displays good sportsmanship and safety and has a good time.

There's nothing wrong, to my mind, in doing anything and everything you can, within both the spirit and the rules, to win a match...if that's exciting and fun for you. It's a competition, and it's the right place for highly-competitive people and not-so-competitive folks, as well.

There's also nothing wrong with simply using IDPA matches to develop and sharpen skills that you might feel are good skills to have--for self defense or just for fun. So, in this case it may be far more important to you to shoot your carry weapon even if it isn't so competitive at the game.

I do both. I mostly shoot a very-much non-carry 40SW in ESP division because it's simply a lot of fun to shoot and I do well with it. From time to time, I take my compact 45 and shoot CDP division, where I don't do quite so well. But I go into that match simply wanting to do as good as I can with my carry gun--not take the win in CDP.

What's nice is that I find that my scores improve when I keep focused and don't do dumb things. I think learning to shoot quickly while staying focused and avoiding dumb things is useful in personal defense as well.

[garyb]

I totally agree with you Bongo Boy. I've been using my PM40 but progress is slow and the gun has some handicaps (low capacity with a number of mag changes to slow me down; short sight radius making longer distances less accurate; looooong trigger pull; etc... I continue to make progress but sometimes question recommendations that I would make quicker progress with scores using a longer slide gun. Soooo, I took the advice and just purchased a 5" barrel gun with fiber optic front sight, a different trigger and etc... I may even carry it at times. It will allow me to compete AND go back and forth with my CCW to see how much my scores improve by working out some BUGS I have in myself.


I think learning to shoot quickly while staying focused and avoiding dumb things is useful in personal defense as well.

I could not agree with you more. I am trying to get rid of some dumb things so my personal defense is improved. Dumb things about me and not my PM40. Right now it is hard to tell the differenct, but I think a competition gun will sort this out quickly. Thanks for the input.

[APSKahr]

You get what you want out of IDPA. If you want to have a high score, most will have to use a gun that maxes out the rules. If you want to practice with your real carry gun good for you and I hope some of the other shooters notice. At my local matches out of 50 shooters probably 5 at most are using their carry gun.
Personally, I don't think that the PM/CM guns are the best choices for the types of scenarios that are in an IDPA match (multiple targets, multiple rounds each, can't retreat, etc). But I think that my CM9 is the best pocket carry gun I've had...

[Bongo Boy]

There may be some subtle and even unimportant distinctions here, but I believe the IDPA rulebook includes some language that attempts to explain the philosophy and some of the practical decisionmaking issues that the founders ran into early on.

Porting is specifically mentioned in this context--that is, there's a very brief comment or two in there somewhere that I interpret to mean they had to pick some point as an arbitrary 'cut off' for modifications. My impression is that they are acknowledging that their decisions were not all easy, nor were they necessarily much more than reaching a point where they had to 'call it', one way or the other.

Some comments here sort of suggest there are 'carry' guns and 'gaming' guns in IDPA, and the IDPA would strongly disagree, I think. While they may allow guns most of us would not choose to carry, they specifically disallow gear that is considered designed specifically for competition. Now, that's a pretty broad stroke there--but it does express the philosophy. You will not see any gear in IDPA that cannot or would not be carried concealed and is not concealable.

While few would fit a self-defense concealed carry gun with a mag well, the allowed mag well is at least restricted to something not intended to assist with an engine oil change.

I'd expect that, if a large portion of commonly available handguns were offered stock with ported barrels, then one day ported barrels would be allowed in IDPA. While they represent a relatively expensive modification offering a sensible shooter advantage, they will not be allowed I expect. The idea, as mentioned above, was to get away from the gear race.

Following the rules in both the letter and the spirit is not gaming, IMO. Even when we try to find 'IDPA' loads to reduce time to target recovery, so long as we keep the power factor above the floor, we're not 'gaming' anything. We have chosen to play a game rather than emphasize 'practical', but again, the IDPA wanted to ensure everyone could play with factory stock gear, guns and ammo.

As APSKahr said, you get what you want out of this game and I think that's okay. Local USPSA and not-so-local IDPA matches are the only opportunity I have to shoot on the move, shoot from behind cover, and shoot under stress. Those factors make it valuable to me far in excess of where I end up on the scoreboard. But, I sure as hell have no plans to end up at the bottom of the scoreboard, either.

Shooting accurately and quickly puts me exactly where I want to be: taking good shots with less hesitation, unimpeded by distraction, and with a keen eye out for what I'm going to hit when I press the trigger. Surprisingly, this gets me into the upper 20% of the pack, generally, regardless of what I'm shooting. I forget to take a target, forget to use my sights, forget to take cover--I get pinged for it. What's not to like?

I kinda like it because in many cases it's a bunch of folks from 14 to 84 out there trying to learn to use their weapons better than they do, and I think just about all of them learn something. The equipment rules are almost inconsequential to the value this game can provide for 93% of all shooters.

APSKahr has encouraged me to seriously consider taking 150 rds or real ammo to my next match, using the holster I really carry, and wearing the clothing I really wear. How many times do you draw your carry gun from under your sweater and winter coat? Is there a less painful way to find out it takes you 3 seconds to draw your gun in reality, instead of the bogus times you get when you practice in the basement with your skin tight sport shirt or maybe your shoot-me-first vest?

IDPA might be the perfect place to take a lower score as your only penalty for discovering you can't even get your gun out of your real carry holster. :)

[APSKahr]

Very good points Bongo. I kind of wish, but understand why they don't, allow pocket carry in IDPA matches since that's how I usually carry. The BUG stages that some clubs have are probably closer to the types of scenarios that most CCW would encounter. No biggie, I have IDPA targets and stands, a timer, and setup my own scenarios at the range.
Check out the IDPA journal 2012 Nationals write up. You can see the number/type of guns used by the competitors and what people say they actually carry.

[garyb]

Excellent points BongoBoy. I understand what you are saying and agree totally. I inappropriately made the distinction between carry and gaming and did not really mean it that way. In fact, I recently purchased another gun to be more competitive (score) and to help me develop my shooting skills which I hope will translate to improved shooting with my carry gun. I am simply going to have fun with the IDPA game and enjoy the progress and set backs along the way. Thanks for your excellent comments.

[HighLander51]

Keep in mind that although IDPA is believed to be about shooting what you carry and tactical, the facts are it was invented, and is owned by, one of the greatest IPSC shooters ever (even before USPSA), and that is Bill Wilson. He and his buddies cooked up the rules way back in 1997, and they are pretty much just opposite of USPSA rules today. Here is a great read.

http://www.frontsightmagazine.org/archives/FSMAR06featuresm.pdf

If you want to shoot your every carry gun, like in my case a G19 from an IWB holster under a t shirt, I can only do so well as opposed to shooting my G34 from an OWB holster and a photographers vest

[Bongo Boy]

...I recently purchased another gun to be more competitive (score) and to help me develop my shooting skills which I hope will translate to improved shooting with my carry gun. I am simply going to have fun with the IDPA game and enjoy the progress and set backs along the way.

Good for you. It IS fun, but at the same time it's pretty good at transforming the way you think about shooting, and the way you shoot. IDPA scoring attempts to penalize sloppy shooting, yet it definitely rewards speed. This is good--you MUST hit your target, but there's no Brownie Points for the 'x-ring'. There's a stiff penalty for spraying and praying, and no reward at all for standing around and lining up perfect shots. Actually, there's quite a penalty for 'standing around'. :)

It's useful, and an absolute blast.

[newCW45guy]

Keep in mind that although IDPA is believed to be about shooting what you carry and tactical, the facts are it was invented, and is owned by, one of the greatest IPSC shooters ever (even before USPSA), and that is Bill Wilson. He and his buddies cooked up the rules way back in 1997, and they are pretty much just opposite of USPSA rules today. Here is a great read.

http://www.frontsightmagazine.org/archives/FSMAR06featuresm.pdf

If you want to shoot your every carry gun, like in my case a G19 from an IWB holster under a t shirt, I can only do so well as opposed to shooting my G34 from an OWB holster and a photographers vest

Excellent article. In the couple years we ran action shoots with no affiliation to IPSC or USPSA I saw terrible shooters transformed into pretty good with a then $4K race gun.

So out of the box concealed carry is the intent.

Depending on the match and participation if there are slots open shooting it for fun/no score with an illegal gun or sights should be up to the officials. If there's no safety issue and funds go to the club why not?

[Bongo Boy]

Depending on the match and participation if there are slots open shooting it for fun/no score with an illegal gun or sights should be up to the officials. If there's no safety issue and funds go to the club why not?

I have no problem at all with that. If a time came where our small 4-berm club was seeing huge squads (and hence long wait times to shoot) and a large percentage of those squads were outlaw shooters, I'd want to take some action. But when the weather is lousy and only 25% of the usual crowd even shows up, it's a no brainer--let 'em shoot if they've come to shoot. I think outlaw apples only to the gun itself though. I don't think I want ankle, thigh or shoulder rigs out there. :)

[HighLander51]

There's a stiff penalty for spraying and praying, and no reward at all for standing around and lining up perfect shots. Actually, there's quite a penalty for 'standing around'. :)

IDPA is scored as time plus 1/2 second per point(s) down. So the longer you take and the more C's and D's you have the worse off you are. However if you are shooting very quickly with no points down, you should speed up. If you are shooting mostly C's and D's you should slow down. In the beginning of the game, IDPA was scored at 1/3 seconds per point, and they felt it rewarded speed to much so it was changed. I ran a 3 berm 4 stage IDPA club for 7 years, and the problem was it got way too big! We had to limit the match to 40 shooters.

[Kahrdriver64]

I didn't see it mentioned, but IDPA rules are intended to keep it from becoming a money and speed gun race like some of the other pistol sports. Not saying it's right when it comes to porting barrels, but that is the intent.

[garyb]

IDPA is scored as time plus 1/2 second per point(s) down. So the longer you take and the more C's and D's you have the worse off you are. However if you are shooting very quickly with no points down, you should speed up. If you are shooting mostly C's and D's you should slow down..


I totally agree with your barometer.

[bugs]

all the IDPA clubs in Wisconsin will let you shoot your CT/PORTED/COMP'D,MAG FUNNEL equipped gun in NFC class,not for compettion, against yourself anyone else who would want to shoot a IDPA illegal gun.you may be able to keep the ported slide w/o ported barrel and be legal in Enhanced Service Pistol, as you'll agree a ported barrel gives you a unfair edge over non-ported competitors.

you may find "gamers" at local matches but they usually move into USPSA where the onus is not so defensive oriented. IDPA sanctioned matches go so far as to check if your pistol fits the "dreaded box" w/mag inserted, weighed,(leaved tungsten guide rods home), mag capacity (CDP, 7o 8 rnd. will mark your hand) where your holster and mag holders are on your belt,ALL IN A EFFORT TO KEEP THE FIELD LEVEL. most IDPA "gamers" in my experience are the ones who can plan, perform better, find the easy way to work rather the hard way. I 've learned this by S.O. ing many good shooters who by gazillion rounds down range can do it smarter,faster, and more accurately without competition ONLY guns.
do they carry what they compete with,some do, usually the CCPs or BUGs; those that don't in IMHO are missing the boat.

you will only get out what you put in; by the way, I compete w/CM9 in BUG/MM, the only changes to gun ,added height to mag release, milled slide for TFO sights.

NRA LIFER
IDPA BELEIVER