Isosceles or Weaver?

[BuckeyeBlast]

How do you shoot, how do you train, and why? Ever been in a real gunfight? (police/military)

Looking for info and discussion, not a fight. :cool:

[ltxi]

Modified Weaver. Don't exactly train anymore. Regular range practice and reliance on experience and instinct. Yes.

[BuckeyeBlast]

Modified Weaver. Don't exactly train anymore. Regular range practice and reliance on experience and instinct. Yes.

"Yes." lol

So, how about some details, specifically were you in any particular 'stance'?

I guess what I'm looking at is training for a fight. Obviously, in my civilian life I'm limited as to what I can do, but still wonder if I can turn my time range time into something that might actually be useful if needed. I've traditionally shot Weaver, but have been trying to train towards Isosceles during my IDPA/USPSA shoots. I wonder if I'm doing the right thing. When SHTF, the targets are actually shooting back, and you go on instinct as much as training, do you go to the stance where you're squared up to the threat, or do you go to the stance where you're minimizing your profile and putting an extra half-step of distance between the threat?

[JimBianchi]

I was a life-long (25yrs) modified weaver user, and after taking a point shooting course 4yrs ago (with my MK9!) I am a convert to point shooting.

One handed, off-handed, waist-high, back pedaling, from the ground, all of it. (I have to end the day on the ground. My hip will not allow fast-off the ground moves. Maybe after the replacement in Aug!)

Point shooting is faster more deadly at the close ranges seen in SD situations.

I train only point shooting now for SD. Lots of ammo down range, lot and lots of dry fire practice and thousands and thousands of airgun pellets also. (for backyard/garage training)

I the past few years I have nearly more total rounds down range than the previous 25yrs. Airguns/airsoft makes it cheap/easy to train at home.

[BuckeyeBlast]

Ya know, I've never thought about Airsoft for at home - that's a good idea.

[ltxi]

"Yes." lol

So, how about some details, specifically were you in any particular 'stance'?

I guess what I'm looking at is training for a fight. Obviously, in my civilian life I'm limited as to what I can do, but still wonder if I can turn my time range time into something that might actually be useful if needed. I've traditionally shot Weaver, but have been trying to train towards Isosceles during my IDPA/USPSA shoots. I wonder if I'm doing the right thing. When SHTF, the targets are actually shooting back, and you go on instinct as much as training, do you go to the stance where you're squared up to the threat, or do you go to the stance where you're minimizing your profile and putting an extra half-step of distance between the threat?

I don't consider "Yes" to be a laughing matter. Nor do I care to share lethal encounter details in a public forum. I'll leave that to the sociopaths.

As to the rest, my opinion....Competent instruction tailored with thought to your personal self/comfort has much value. Beyond that if you're fortunate, or unfortunate, enough to have hands on experience you go with what's kept you alive before as modified by anything learned. What you do not want to do when a situation reaches critical mass is to have to start thinking about what you're doing, how you're standing, or what you're gonna do next.

[Rainman48314]

How do you shoot, how do you train, and why? Ever been in a real gunfight? (police/military)

Looking for info and discussion, not a fight. :cool:
From reading what experts have put into books, you default to your training, you don't rise to the occasion. One source said stance goes out the window immediately in a real gunfight. You can't train enough.

[Thunder71]

Neither, I'll go all Chuck Norris on them before they know what hit 'em dodging bullets Matrix style.

[BuckeyeBlast]

I don't consider "Yes" to be a laughing matter. Nor do I care to share lethal encounter details in a public forum. I'll leave that to the sociopaths.

Lol at the shortness of your answer, not that it's happened.


As to the rest, my opinion....Competent instruction tailored with thought to your personal self/comfort has much value. Beyond that if you're fortunate, or unfortunate, enough to have hands on experience you go with what's kept you alive before as modified by anything learned. What you do not want to do when a situation reaches critical mass is to have to start thinking about what you're doing, how you're standing, or what you're gonna do next.

Let me put this another way - when your mystery experience happened, did you revert to your training or what you're most comfortable with instinctively.

Seems most firearms trainers I've encountered teach isosceles. I'm more comfortable weaver. I'm wanting opinions on whether it's worth it to train and increase my comfort level with isosceles, or just stick with how I react instinctively.

People say time and time again that you fall back on your training, but there's a lot of real life situations were people also fall back on instincts. I wonder what's more common?

[Chowser]

A modified IsoWeaver stance :)

Basically, start with Iso which brings your full front body armor up front, then us right handers move our right foot back a little towards a weaver stance.

i am kind of squaring off with the target like i am getting into a fight, but still trying to keep an iso stance to keep my body armor up front. give them the biggest target i can that is protected.

[ltxi]

Lol at the shortness of your answer, not that it's happened.



Let me put this another way - when your mystery experience happened, did you revert to your training or what you're most comfortable with instinctively.

Seems most firearms trainers I've encountered teach isosceles. I'm more comfortable weaver. I'm wanting opinions on whether it's worth it to train and increase my comfort level with isosceles, or just stick with how I react instinctively.

People say time and time again that you fall back on your training, but there's a lot of real life situations were people also fall back on instincts. I wonder what's more common?

Despite being rather pissed off by your characterization of my life experiences as "mystery", I'll answer your question before I completely back out of this thread because I believe you're sincere.

The short answer to both of the options in your question is yes. And it's not just about handguns.

I have limited patience for most expert trainers for hire. If you're lucky, or smart enough to do your homework and you have the option, you first get to depend on having good/competent training. If you survive after that you develop your own sense of what works for you...and then that's just where you instinctively go the next time. Please get over worrying about all this one stance or another crap and just go with what feels right for you.

With sincere thanks to my first combat firearms NCO instructor without who's essential and expert advice I would most likely not be alive today.

[BuckeyeBlast]

Despite being rather pissed off by your characterization of my life experiences as "mystery", I'll answer your question before I completely back out of this thread because I believe you're sincere.

The short answer to both of the options in your question is yes. And it's not just about handguns.

I have limited patience for most expert trainers for hire. If you're lucky, or smart enough to do your homework and you have the option, you first get to depend on having good/competent training. If you survive after that you develop your own sense of what works for you...and then that's just where you instinctively go the next time. Please get over worrying about all this one stance or another crap and just go with what feels right for you.

With sincere thanks to my first combat firearms NCO instructor without who's essential and expert advice I would most likely not be alive today.

Jeesh man, yeah- I'm sincere. I asked for your input and you said you would't blab it on the internet, so I called it a "mystery" event. "Mystery" aka unknown, aka secret, etc... nothing intended to get anyone pissed about.

Anywho - thanks for your input. :cool:

[ltxi]

Sorry about that. I mistook your use of the term mystery as sarcasm and reacted....probably badly.

[johnh]

Modified isosceles with leg on strong side slightly back. I prefer that stance when running long guns, so keep it consistent and do the same when shooting handguns. Some guys say you cannot turn as fast from that stance, but I learned to pivot on the balls of my feet quickly in other pursuits, so that point seems moot to me.

Someone mentioned airsoft. I am a strong proponent of using gas blowback airsoft pistols for practice. They lack recoil, but do let you practice many other aspects of shooting without needing a range. Ammo is cheap, and the guns are too. This is not a substitute for shooting real firearms, but a supplement.

[oldjarhead]

I think it is true you will revert to how you have been trained. I have seen a lot of dash cam videos, in training sessions and on youtube. It appears that under high stress, most of the cops I saw on the videos were shooting back with some type an isoceles stance, but were usually moving, so they would not be an easy target. Arms thrust out, isoceles style. I have never been in a gun fight, and hope I never will be, but it seems logical to me that thrusting your gun and arms toward the target under high stress seems logical to me, rather than trying to get into a good weaver. I am sure there are folks out there who could, but I think the iscoceles would work better for me.

[garyb]

I don't have any problem discussing the question and sharing a healthy dialog. It is a good point that you make and a good discussion can come of it. Not everyone will agree and that is OK. But, I practice both forms described as well as variations and modifications, during daily dry fire practice;, at the range; two hands strong and weak side; with one hand strong and weak side; and from various positions (standing, kneeling, sitting, lying down, etc..). I mix it up. I practice different things and sometimes it is simply from a bench off a rest. I mix it up quite a bit over and over again. Sometimes for accuracy, sometimes for speed, sometimes for angles, sometime for trigger control, breathing, moving in, moving out, twisting, draw from various carry holsters, etc... Most of the time it is for fun. I practice with my wife. We make it fun for eachother. Laugh, hug, joke, tease....compete. We have been practicing together in the shooting sports for many years. She was 3X State Black Powder Rifle Champion and I am very proud of her. She has come a long, long way from being an anti gun person when we first met. She outshoots most men by miles. We push eachother and compete against eachother for fun. We make it fun and we also make it intense. Sometimes she gets mad but when we are done, it is over and we get back to the other parts of our lives. It is good time we share together. I think about it this way - In the martial arts you don't practice one stance nor one technique all of the time. This would be like writing a word using one letter all the time, or writing a sentence using only one word all of the time. Instead, you build words from letters, sentences from words, etc... It is a progressive art and without that kind of practice which continues to build on itself, it can be a deteriorating art. I see it the same with handguns. In the martial arts, one adapts instantly with speed, power, focus, control, flexibility and diversity via all the techniques you have practiced. Always pushing and expanding. It makes one a better martial artist. I don't use the same punch for every technique. I don't use the same stance for every technique. It won't work when the moment arises which one must apply him/herself. Watch the mixed martial arts and you will see this to be factual. Whether you happen to agree or not, I see handgun practice as a form of martial arts. I really don't believe that in a stressful situation you automatically revert back to one stance. I don't know where this thought was born. However, if you are going to do one thing only, be prepared to do it very, very well, because that will be the ONLY thing you will be capable of doing well. I believe one will fall into the position that best suits the situation that is being encountered, providing you have trained for that moment.

I hope you take my comments in the right way, whether you agree or not. My intention was not to insult anyone. I am merely answering your question and adding to the dialog. Hope the info is useful to you. Know your sword. God Bless.

[Longitude Zero]

You will always default to your training. When I started on the job it is was isocelese. When we transitioned to semi auto we changed to weaver. Now it is backto isoceles with a semi auto. I shoot equally well with either.

Many self defense uses are at one or two arms lengths in distance so weaver vs isoceles does not matter. It is reactive point and shoot.

[BuckeyeBlast]

garyb - that all makes a ton of sense.

[355Nut]

Re:A modified IsoWeaver stance. Thanks, Chowser for naming my stance. It's just what feels natural to me, an untrained civilian who shoots right handed with the left eye. Time and money constraints limit my shooting, but the best help I've had is informal training (read "fun") with an LE buddy. Stuff like firing while advancing, firing while retreating (old guys like me need a spotter behind with hand on back to keep me from going arse over teakettle), firing one handed, weak and strong, while walking parallel to multiple threats, seven yards or so. The most enlightening drill was running a short obstacle course, then drawing and engaging multiple targets. What he really has taught me is that in a real world situation, you may be forced to process lots of info to make the right decision, in a very short time frame with your lungs pumping and heart hammering. Scary stuff. I can bang away at 8" steel plates all day, 10-15 meters, with my CW9 and never miss, but I gotta wonder what will happen when the SHTF.
A shoutout to all you LE guys and gals who share your training and experience with the rest of us.

[Rainman48314]

Sorry about that. I mistook your use of the term mystery as sarcasm and reacted....probably badly.

I read it as sarcastic too. Live and learn.

[jeep45238]

Isosceles. Better recoil management, sights are faster on the target, I'm more accurate, and I'm faster. The shot timer and the target do not lie, and are not subjective to feelings.

I have never been in a gun fight, and want to avoid one as much as I can.

That being said, a lot of people talk about minimizing your profile by doing a weaver/boxer stance. I think they're retarded. Why? You're going to get shot - but the faster you end it, the less shot you will get. That said, by angling your body, you expose MORE internal organs to that one shot you will get, than if you squared up to the target.

Of course, if you have time to think of this stuff as it's happening, it's probably not life threatening, and the gun should stay in the holster. If you're not going to be able to focus on sights, trigger control, breathing, and form in a life/death situation, your body will just making things do their thing to live.

[Longitude Zero]

Having been there when the balloon went up if you are doing it correctly you won't be using either stance. You will be using a cover/barricade and/or crouching stance.

You want to move off-centerline of the suspect and get to cover. Neither stance lends itself to this. When the shots are being fired I have NO intent of standing still and will be moving to cover.

[jlottmc]

Pretty much what he said. I will add that having been hit, that sucks, cover is your friend.

[Longitude Zero]

Pretty much what he said. I will add that having been hit, that sucks, cover is your friend.

Me too. I took a 45ACP hit in the upper left chest a couple of decades ago. Thanks to ballistic armor I lived to fight another day.

[jlottmc]

I've been hit twice with a vest, and three without. I gotta add this, body armor is awesome, but still sucks to take a round. Both of mine were large caliber and I still broke ribs. The others were superficial at best, I probably shouldn't count one of them though. I took a 45 to the steel of my boot from the old mans crappy ammo and aim. Still had to cut the boot off with a die grinder though.