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View Full Version : Choosing a gun for training Sunday- UPDATED



Rainman48314
09-23-2011, 12:14 AM
I'm taking a 8 hour class on Sunday at CQT (my local indoor range) called Tactical Handgun I. I am to bring a weapon, holster, three mags and ammo.

Here's my dilema. My EDC (70%) is a HK P7 9mm and I only have two mags. It also heats up after 60-70 rounds fired in the space of 30 minutes. Mags can't be found on short notice and they are $75 I'd rather not spend. We are told to bring at least 200 rounds.

I could bring my Sig P238 .380 Auto but would need to buy a third mag ASAP. It's the gun I shoot and handle the best. I carry it 30% of the time.

My remaining choice is a full size M&P 9. I'm not crazy about the SafariLand retention holster I have for it. I noticed I nearly always release the safety as I follow thru on releasing the retention button. The gun is barely clear of the holster and the muzzle points too close to my leg. I would prefer to release the safety more consciously as I bring the weapon to a shooting postion near the hip with the barell parallel to the ground. I never carry this system. It's my house gun and the holster is more for open carry after some catastrphic event.

What does the brain trust recommend?

mser
09-23-2011, 05:16 AM
I'd take the M&P 9 . You can pick up an Uncle Mikes or similar holster on short notice rather cheaply.

jocko
09-23-2011, 05:52 AM
of what u mention the M & P.

vn6869
09-23-2011, 07:52 AM
I'm taking a 8 hour class on Sunday at CQT (my local indoor range) called Tactical Handgun I. I am to bring a weapon, holster, three mags and ammo.

Here's my dilema. My EDC (70%) is a HK P7 9mm . . .. It also heats up after 60-70 rounds fired in the space of 30 minutes. . . . . We are told to bring at least 200 rounds.

I could bring my Sig P238 .380 Auto but would need to buy a third mag ASAP. It's the gun I shoot and handle the best. I carry it 30% of the time.

My remaining choice is a full size M&P 9. I'm not crazy about the SafariLand retention holster I have for it. I noticed I nearly always release the safety as I follow thru on releasing the retention button. . . . . It's my house gun and the holster is more for open carry after some catastrphic event.

What does the brain trust recommend?

I recommend you get the Uncle Mike's for Sunday,
On Monday sell the HK P7 and buy get a Kahr. Or take a bucket of water to dunk the HK in. :ohmy:

ripley16
09-23-2011, 08:14 AM
I agree; the logical answer is to take a more range friendly holster and your M&P. You didn't say whether you had three mags for it but they should be easier to find in any case.

Are you limited to only one firearm? Could you take the P7 as well, shoot some portion of the qualification with it, then switch at an appropriate time?


It also heats up after 60-70 rounds fired in the space of 30 minutes.

An understatement. The most I've ever been able to get through in half an hour is 80 rounds ... at which time I throw some bacon on the barrel, crack an egg and cook breakfast. ;)

Internet Blohard
09-23-2011, 07:38 PM
I would take a least two guns with all accessories and lots of extra ammo to any training. You don't want to miss out on the training you paid for if you get a failure on the primary gun that you cannot fix. It happens all the time. Bring some extra ammo as well. You are there to train and to learn new skills, not to fool around with guns or gear that doesn't work right. The training will likely move along whether you can keep up or not. So, if you are having issues, grab another gun and keep up.

I don't think that in a 200 round/8 hour day is going to heat up the P7 all that much. In a 200 round day you won't be shooting that fast or furious to rack up 60-70 rounds in a half hour, unless you do a whole lot of shooting in the last hour and almost none before that. I also don't know if the lack of a third mag is going to inhibit things all that much either....but you could call the instructor and ask if you could squeek by with just the two.

I recommend training with the gun and holster you carry, namely the P7. You will be learning new skills so you need a gun you are very familiar with. If you decide not to use the P7, I would use the next most familiar gun and likely to be carried gun, whichever that is.

It is not a time to get acquainted with something you don't carry, or haven't shot that much or with a new holster that you are not familiar with or ammo you haven't tried yet.

Rainman48314
09-23-2011, 08:48 PM
I'd take the M&P 9 . You can pick up an Uncle Mikes or similar holster on short notice rather cheaply.
I picked up a Fobus M&P paddle holster (with passive retention). Been working with it dry fire at home. I have three mags for the M&P now. I feel much more comfortable with this holster since the safety is not influenced by my retention button release follow through. I spoke with the lead trainer and he said I could use two guns in the class. I'm leaning to keeping it simple and go the the M&P. MY BUG uses a similar safety and my P7 has none.

Rainman48314
09-23-2011, 08:52 PM
I recommend you get the Uncle Mike's for Sunday,
On Monday sell the HK P7 and buy get a Kahr. Or take a bucket of water to dunk the HK in. :ohmy:Not selling that HK..ever. I already have a Kahr, shot it pretty well today but then I got some nose dives. I have three mags for it, a good IWB holster but it is still very hard to quickly clear. Not a first or second choice for Sunday.

Rainman48314
09-23-2011, 08:57 PM
I recommend you get the Uncle Mike's for Sunday,
On Monday sell the HK P7 and buy get a Kahr. Or take a bucket of water to dunk the HK in. :ohmy:


I would take a least two guns with all accessories and lots of extra ammo to any training. You don't want to miss out on the training you paid for if you get a failure on the primary gun that you cannot fix. It happens all the time. Bring some extra ammo as well. You are there to train and to learn new skills, not to fool around with guns or gear that doesn't work right. The training will likely move along whether you can keep up or not. So, if you are having issues, grab another gun and keep up.

I don't think that in a 200 round/8 hour day is going to heat up the P7 all that much. In a 200 round day you won't be shooting that fast or furious to rack up 60-70 rounds in a half hour, unless you do a whole lot of shooting in the last hour and almost none before that. I also don't know if the lack of a third mag is going to inhibit things all that much either....but you could call the instructor and ask if you could squeek by with just the two.

I recommend training with the gun and holster you carry, namely the P7. You will be learning new skills so you need a gun you are very familiar with. If you decide not to use the P7, I would use the next most familiar gun and likely to be carried gun, whichever that is.

It is not a time to get acquainted with something you don't carry, or haven't shot that much or with a new holster that you are not familiar with or ammo you haven't tried yet.You make some good points. Just note that I have very limited experience with drawing and reholstering any gun I own. The Fobus I got today is the only OWB type I have and is prefered by the trainer over IWB or AIWB. I have tested lots of ammo brands and weights. I think I'm good there.

Rainman48314
09-23-2011, 08:59 PM
I agree; the logical answer is to take a more range friendly holster and your M&P. You didn't say whether you had three mags for it but they should be easier to find in any case.

Are you limited to only one firearm? Could you take the P7 as well, shoot some portion of the qualification with it, then switch at an appropriate time?



An understatement. The most I've ever been able to get through in half an hour is 80 rounds ... at which time I throw some bacon on the barrel, crack an egg and cook breakfast. ;)I will likely take the P7 and try to get some work in with it too. Need a backup in the unlikely event my M&P fails.

TominCA
09-23-2011, 11:21 PM
I vote M&P 9 Its a "Better Glock"

Scoundrel
09-24-2011, 11:04 AM
I have no specific recommendations regarding which gun, but I have gone through a training class like this so I can offer some insight.

If you're having holster issues (clicking the safety off accidentally), then a good way to get better at it is to bring that one to the class. By the time the class is done you'll have either corrected the problem, or turned it into a habit, but gotten more comfortable with it. Obviously the best way to correct that problem is to stand in front of a mirror and draw/re-holster 500 times, correcting your technique and slowly speeding up once you have your technique down.

You want to bring your most reliable gun, because you want to focus on the class and the things they are trying to teach you. If you have a malfunction during class, it will distract you from the lesson, and also embarrass/fluster you, which is very detrimental to learning.

You want to bring a gun with a high capacity magazine. Some of the exercises will involve a lot of shooting in one round. In the class I took, there was a module where we did some shooting while moving from one piece of cover to another, with magazine changes when we ran out. The instructor told us how many rounds to load up based on who had the gun with the smallest capacity. That turned out to be me, with my 8-round magazines. I'm glad I did not bring my CM9 with 6-round magazines.

Basically, you want to avoid a situation where you have to think about the gun or work through any issues with it. The gun is the tool, and the class is about how to use tools in general, so don't bring a tool that will need specific adjustments during the class.

Rainman48314
09-24-2011, 04:59 PM
I have no specific recommendations regarding which gun, but I have gone through a training class like this so I can offer some insight.

If you're having holster issues (clicking the safety off accidentally), then a good way to get better at it is to bring that one to the class. By the time the class is done you'll have either corrected the problem, or turned it into a habit, but gotten more comfortable with it. Obviously the best way to correct that problem is to stand in front of a mirror and draw/re-holster 500 times, correcting your technique and slowly speeding up once you have your technique down.

You want to bring your most reliable gun, because you want to focus on the class and the things they are trying to teach you. If you have a malfunction during class, it will distract you from the lesson, and also embarrass/fluster you, which is very detrimental to learning.

You want to bring a gun with a high capacity magazine. Some of the exercises will involve a lot of shooting in one round. In the class I took, there was a module where we did some shooting while moving from one piece of cover to another, with magazine changes when we ran out. The instructor told us how many rounds to load up based on who had the gun with the smallest capacity. That turned out to be me, with my 8-round magazines. I'm glad I did not bring my CM9 with 6-round magazines.

Basically, you want to avoid a situation where you have to think about the gun or work through any issues with it. The gun is the tool, and the class is about how to use tools in general, so don't bring a tool that will need specific adjustments during the class.I'm bring the highest capacity, easiest handling gun I own, the M&P 9. It only has 450 rounds through it but not a single problem. I am bringing my P7 as backup and hope to get some work with it. It has been reliable in the 450 rounds I've shot since acquiring it. I am most acurate with it and its my primary carry gun. The PM9 comes along because its 9mm and even a backup needs a backup.

As far as the holster, I don't think there is any way to avoid releasing the safety during the draw because the gun is only partially clearing the holster and momentum is working against you. It's part of the motion of getting a good high grip. I think the LEO who recommended it did not have a safety and had the 8.5 # optional trigger. Mine is about 5.5#. Anyway, I have a new suitable holster. Thanks for your comments and suggestion..everyone

Husky44
09-25-2011, 08:57 PM
So, how did it go?

Rainman48314
09-25-2011, 10:24 PM
So, how did it go?Great, but so much to learn and improve upon.

Class size was small..a young under 30 married couple, a former Marine about age 70, another male about 39-41, and me age 61.5. The former Marine came with a Beretta 92 in .40. The other three had Glocks in .40SW. I brought my 9mm M&P and never went to my backup or alternate guns.

We spent a ton of time dry firing our own weapons in a classroom. No plastic guns. Everyone checking everyone else's mags and chambers before we started. The instructor double checked. We all checked his Colt 1911A.

First, we learned that we needed to master shooting with BOTH eyes open. This was to give us the best peripheral vision and depth perception. We practiced this but I know I struggled, especially shooting left handed. Our Marine, a lefty, had problems because he was cross eye dominant and had some secondary eye problem in his other eye. He and I had the only guns with safeties, his working in reverse direction from mine, his was also a decocking lever.

We spent some time talking about grip and gun fitting. It was determined our Marine had a gun too large for him. It was very obvious when he was in DA mode. He was unfortunately very unfamiliar with his Beretta.

Due to the small class size, we finished live fire drilling before 9PM. We started at 6:15 Our Marine was persuaded to drop out for safety reasons around 7:00.

We used buzzers and timers. We did drills to switch hands in the middle of our draws. We had to shoot Iosceles, Weaver and Chapman on command. We shot at charging targets under time and distance pressures. We had fun and closed with shooting a silhouette at 80 feet (one round, scored as are you dead or alive), 60 ft, 20 ft and 10 feet. I lived at all distances and no one else did. I was the most accuate shooter there, so I saw and was told by the others. I was not the fastest, losing most of my time on mag changes (never ever practice) AND working my safety. I wasn't the slowest either. I plan to practice two eye shooting and experimenting with the two stances I don't use. I then want to work on speed and begin using my IWB holster & HK P7.

EDIT: Forgot to say I was very happy with my $29.99 Fobus paddle holster. It was 100% flawless and that my hand fit to my M&P with the smallest backstrap is marginal. Any ideas on fixing that? I saw a YouTube where a Glock was reshaped using a candle's heat. We discussed ammo too. Speer Gold Dot comes highly recommended becuase the way the copper cladding is added to the lead. It retains 100% of its weight after impact. As an aside, SIG recommended them to me when they polished my P238 feed ramp.

Husky44
09-25-2011, 10:48 PM
Sounds like a good time, and a good learning experience. I took a 3 day Defensive Handgun I course two weeks ago, and had a ball.

Big +1 on the shooting with both eyes open. I actually learned it doing precision (rifle) shooting, where every bit of muscle tension effects your accuracy. Believe it or not, holding that eye shut introduces muscle tension. I later discovered that it was really useful on the pop-up range (Army M16 qual range, among others). Didn't have to break my cheek-to-stock weld to scan for targets, just switched eyes (if you've been squeezing your non-firing eye shut, that first few seconds after you open it, it tends to be blurry at distance). So it was a natural carry-over for pistol shooting. I don't think it has as big an impact on accuracy, but it certainly enhances situational awareness.

Agree on practicing holster work, draws from concealment, and mag changes. All that dryfire technique and practice will pay off. I was maddeningly slow the first day, working technique. Day 3, everyone was afraid to go against me in the shoot-off (draw from holster, steel target at 10 yards and 25 yards) because I was both most accurate and fastest draw. 100 reps each night of the draw helped... You can never get too much dryfire, IMHO.

Looking forward to getting my SuperTuck for the CW40, so I can start training with that.

Sorry, no help on the M&P. Not sure how much I'd play with a backstrap with heat. You say "marginal". Are you comfortable? If so, and based on your results, I'd say don't change anything.

Rainman48314
11-14-2011, 08:49 PM
Since class, I acquired a used Sig 1911 RCS. I really love the caliber increase and find I am even more accurate with it then even my very accurate HK P7. Fit to the hand and a great SA trigger is the key.

I am about to upgrade my M&P 9 (the house gun)

I have ordered an Apex Tactical Duty/Carry Action Enhancement kit. I should have it before the weekend. I may opt to have a pro install it.

I also ordered a DPM Systems Advanced Recoil Reduction System. Also due by Friday.

I have been waiting for Trijicon HD sights since 9/20. Maybe, just maybe, they will arrive by Friday too. Third promise could be the charm.

This adds another $360 to the initial cost of the M&P. I don't know where I'm headed with this, possibly some competion. My range has events and leagues.

Anyone done anything similar to a M&P?