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Thread: M9 service pistol replacement

  1. #1
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    Default M9 service pistol replacement

    If your like me and despise the M9 Beretta with a passion, what pistol would you like to see all the services switch to?

    1. I know certain organizations in each of the services have switched to different pistols.

    2. Being an Infantryman I know pistols play a limited role on the battlefield.

    On that I do think they play a role and the services should carry the best.

    For my part I think we should go back to the .45 caliber and on that should go with the SIG P220. No I dont own stock in SIG. They are solid pistols which are easy to disassemble and clean. Anyway let me know what you think.
    K40, CW40, Glock 23, SIG P229, Para 1911

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo54 View Post

    For my part I think we should go back to the .45 caliber and on that should go with the SIG P220. No I dont own stock in SIG. They are solid pistols which are easy to disassemble and clean. Anyway let me know what you think.
    What you said right there about the Sig.
    The only thing better than having all the guns and ammo you'd ever need would be being able to shoot it all off the back porch.

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  3. #3
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    The Beretta is a very good pistol. It fulfills the need. Why needlessly spend money we don't have?
    Judging by today's left wing, looks like Senator Joe McCarthy was right after all.

  4. #4
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    Personally I thought it was a stupid move to switch to the Beretta in the first place.

    A waste of money and effort.

    I have no issue really with the Beretta, the dept here had them for years, very few issues but I do like the tried and true 45.

    The old Colt served well and it seems the cream of the crop in many military and LE organizations get them back first chance they can.
    Should be plenty good enough for the rest of us too.
    In Memory of Paul "Dietrich" Stines.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bawanna View Post
    Personally I thought it was a stupid move to switch to the Beretta in the first place.

    A waste of money and effort.

    I have no issue really with the Beretta, the dept here had them for years, very few issues but I do like the tried and true 45.

    The old Colt served well and it seems the cream of the crop in many military and LE organizations get them back first chance they can.
    Should be plenty good enough for the rest of us too.
    There were primarily three reasons the switch was made.
    * The adoption of the 9mm round as in line with NATO requirements and standardization. The same reason multiple countries adopted the 5.56x45.
    * The stock of 1911A1s were worn out and in need of replacement in general.
    * The reliability of the 1911A1 was substandard to more modern handguns. These standards were elevated to higher levels that the 1911 could not meet. Only two guns met the standard. Even my beloved HK entrant failed in the reliability tests.

    I might add that the 1911 style handguns that are in (limited) use, come with a price tag many times that of replacement M9s. Those units that feel they need the 1911, get the 1911. Those that have no need, don't get it. A wise choice.
    Judging by today's left wing, looks like Senator Joe McCarthy was right after all.

  6. #6
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    Yup, NATO, kind of like the UN. Third world grass hut nations telling the most powerful nation in the world (barely but still) what to do.

    Otherwise good points.
    In Memory of Paul "Dietrich" Stines.
    Dad: Say something nice to your cousin Shirley
    Dietrich: For a fat girl you sure don't sweat much.
    Cue sound of Head slap.

    RIP Muggsy & TMan

    "If you are a warrior legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that JOCKO will not come today."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripley16 View Post
    There were primarily three reasons the switch was made.
    * The adoption of the 9mm round as in line with NATO requirements and standardization. The same reason multiple countries adopted the 5.56x45.
    * The stock of 1911A1s were worn out and in need of replacement in general.
    * The reliability of the 1911A1 was substandard to more modern handguns. These standards were elevated to higher levels that the 1911 could not meet. Only two guns met the standard. Even my beloved HK entrant failed in the reliability tests.

    I might add that the 1911 style handguns that are in (limited) use, come with a price tag many times that of replacement M9s. Those units that feel they need the 1911, get the 1911. Those that have no need, don't get it. A wise choice.
    That's the first time I've seen that argument made. The 1911 pistols I used on active duty (and saw in use by others) were every bit as reliable as the M9s that replaced them in the units I was assigned to. As to standards being "elevated to higher levels that the 1911 could not meet", that's supposition: the 1911 was never a player in the XM9 Service Pistol Trials (remember that was conducted to determine a 9mm replacement for it and the revolvers then in use). Some might argue that the second place pistol won the trial as the Beretta was chosen over the P226 because of cost factors.
    FWIW, we did see an increase in pistol scores once we went to the Beretta, but the pistol qualification course was also revamped and, IMO, made quite a bit easier. That's not said to discount the Beretta, those that were issued to me were reliable/accurate pistols (as 9mms go).
    Regards,
    Greg

  8. #8
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    As to standards being "elevated to higher levels that the 1911 could not meet", that's supposition: the 1911 was never a player in the XM9 Service Pistol Trials (remember that was conducted to determine a 9mm replacement for it and the revolvers then in use).
    Whereas it wasn't a "player", the 1911 was in fact tested alongside the other pistols as a control and in reliability/ failure tests. the 1911 had many times the failure rate of the Beretta and Sig, (the two finalists). Had it been in competition with the others the 1911 would have been eliminated from consideration.
    Judging by today's left wing, looks like Senator Joe McCarthy was right after all.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripley16 View Post
    Whereas it wasn't a "player", the 1911 was in fact tested alongside the other pistols as a control and in reliability/ failure tests. the 1911 had many times the failure rate of the Beretta and Sig, (the two finalists). Had it been in competition with the others the 1911 would have been eliminated from consideration.
    That's true, 1911s were used as a control in the XM9 Service Pistol Trials (conducted to find a 9mm service pistol). These were off the rack pistols against top manufacturers trials specific pistols. In 1981 testing, these old 1911s actually had better reliability than the Beretta. In the 1984 testing, the SIG and Beretta pistols were much improved and did much, much better. However, the old war horses were the only pistols to pass the the environmental tests 100%. Reliability wise, in 1984, the 1911s placed behind (in order) the SIG, Beretta, S&W entries, but ahead of the HK entry:
    http://archive.gao.gov/d4t4/130439.pdf
    Regards,
    Greg

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripley16 View Post
    There were primarily three reasons the switch was made.
    * The adoption of the 9mm round as in line with NATO requirements and standardization. The same reason multiple countries adopted the 5.56x45.
    * The stock of 1911A1s were worn out and in need of replacement in general.
    * The reliability of the 1911A1 was substandard to more modern handguns. These standards were elevated to higher levels that the 1911 could not meet. Only two guns met the standard. Even my beloved HK entrant failed in the reliability tests.
    Yes we should of forced the adoption of the American .45 over the European 9mm just like we forced the adoption of the American 5.56mm and 7.62mm. The Beretta was first issued back in the mid 80's so they are pushing 30 years. The M9s are getting physically old and need to be replaced. The Beretta was a good pistol (minus the caliber) back in the early/mid eighties but pistol design has come a looong way in the last thirty years and it's time to replace them. So even speaking of strictly budgetary reasons they need to be replaced. If the services can find billions of dollars to waste on 18 different uniforms I'm sure they can find 10-15 million and buy new, updated handguns across the board!
    K40, CW40, Glock 23, SIG P229, Para 1911

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