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Thread: Thoughts on the CM9 feed issues

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    169

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    Quote Originally Posted by D78999 View Post
    " D78, it is NOT supposed to work like that.
    The first thing I would do is get a couple of boxes of factory ammo and see what that does. You should NOT be carrying reloads anyway, both for legal liability reasons (they tried to hang Zimmerman for his "hair trigger" and "extra round in the chamber" on his Keltec) because if you ever use it they will say you made "super loads" to kill people, and for reliability, because a shootout would be a really bad time to have a case split or a squib or a not fully seated primer.
    No comment on your reloading prowess, just speaking common sense.

    That being said, if factory ball or JHP feeds properly, you have an issue with your rounds. There is very little space inside a Kahr, and a little off on the OAL or shape of the bullet makes all the difference in the world.

    Again, it should and must feed off the top of the mag. If factory ammo won't feed, send it to Kahr to be fixed. Your issue is unacceptable on a defense gun. What if it jams or you get a dud, and you need to do a clearing drill? You won't be able to get the gun back into service. NO GOOD. "




    First of all, all of the blather about "you'll get in legal trouble with reloads" is internet paranoid CONJECTURE. I've heard more than enough of it - so do me a favor and stow it someplace else, OK ? Thanks for your concern, if that's what it is - but I don't need the lecture.

    Howis it that you somehow think that "factory" ammo will feed any better than reloads ? Not a reloader, are you ? Evidently not, as you don't seem to understand that a reloader can duplicate ANY factory ammo, with the right components. "Factory ball" ??? Simply round nosed, jacketed bullets. I have already tested (as I've already stated) every bullet shape available for 9mm, except the notoriously difficult to feed semi-wadcutter. So, I am WAY past your point, OK ?

    The reason the TOP round in the mag won't feed, IF the mag is fully loaded....is for reasons stated in my previous post, period. "Factory ball" ammo or not, is NOT the point.
    Actually, you are quite insulting to people who are trying to help you. And strange as it may sound to you, I have been reloading since 1971. So I know a tiny bit about it.

    BUT, more importantly, I have had several conversations with Kahr in regards to feeding in the PM9/MK9. Your analysis is totally wrong. In the Kahr, the rounds do NOT slide up the feed ramp. Rather, they HIT the feed ramp and more or less bounce in. I know that sounds strange, but you in fact mentioned the "angles" and in fact you are correct. There is nothing you can do to make that round "slide" up the ramp. It just does not work that way.

    In fact, take a good look. The ramp is offset. That's right, it is not dead center. So yes, it is not a shock that a Kahr has a feeding problem.

    The reason you need to try factory ammo is simple. You have to eliminate all possible issues, one at a time, to arrive at the answer.

    Since you state that getting your finger under the mag seems to make a difference, I am thinking you have a worn or out of spec mag catch. The mag is not being held high enough in the frame. You frame could even be out of spec. It happens.

    So instead of trashing everyone who tries to help, take a deep breath and find the solution.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    1,563

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    Before you go cutting, grinding, filing , sanding, or squeezing anything. Try this it won't cost you a dime. Load the mag, and then tap the mag a couple times on its back down on a flat surface to make sure all the rounds are set tight to the rear of the mag. I know we're all supposed to know, and do this, but many either don't know, or don't do it. All you have to do is go to any range watch people reload they're mags, and you'll see this is true. Speed loaders are nice and they are fast but can often cause problems with the rounds not being seated all the way to the rear of the mag. Rounds not seated all the way to the rear of the mag will often cause chambering, and ejecting problems. This is not only true with pistols, but goes all the way back to the M1 Garand.
    To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.


    SHOOT STRAIGHT, RIDE SAFE

  3. #23
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    Jul 2013
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    " Actually, you are quite insulting to people who are trying to help you. And strange as it may sound to you, I have been reloading since 1971. So I know a tiny bit about it.

    BUT, more importantly, I have had several conversations with Kahr in regards to feeding in the PM9/MK9. Your analysis is totally wrong. In the Kahr, the rounds do NOT slide up the feed ramp. Rather, they HIT the feed ramp and more or less bounce in. I know that sounds strange, but you in fact mentioned the "angles" and in fact you are correct. There is nothing you can do to make that round "slide" up the ramp. It just does not work that way.

    In fact, take a good look. The ramp is offset. That's right, it is not dead center. So yes, it is not a shock that a Kahr has a feeding problem.

    The reason you need to try factory ammo is simple. You have to eliminate all possible issues, one at a time, to arrive at the answer.

    Since you state that getting your finger under the mag seems to make a difference, I am thinking you have a worn or out of spec mag catch. The mag is not being held high enough in the frame. You frame could even be out of spec. It happens.

    So instead of trashing everyone who tries to help, take a deep breath and find the solution."



    Scosgt,

    First of all, I will apologize to you regarding the tone of my post, to which you replied with the quoted material above. Unfortunately, I was pissed at that other guy, when I answered you. I was out of line.

    However, I do not and will not apologize in any way to "that other guy". He is an ass - and started the trouble. I didn't come here for a fight - and didn't create one. I will say that your characterization of my "trashing everyone who tries to help" is inaccurate - a gross overgeneralization.

    More than enough said about all of that, though, so moving on.....



    I am in fact aware of how a magazine-fed firearm feeds. My mention of the rounds "sliding up the feed ramp" was made ONLY in the context of the first round jam....that the first round, after nose-diving and jamming against the feed ramp, can't slide up the surface of the ramp and at least free itself from the jam, because the feed ramp is nearly vertical. In this case, the feed ramp serves as more of a wall, than a ramp. Even if the round, in this context, was able to "slide up the ramp" , it still wouldn't feed properly, in all probability, because it would, by that time, be out of position vis a vis the slide. In any event, my using the words "sliding up the ramp" was NOT intended to convey the idea that the nose of the bullet should or normally would contact the ramp and "slide up" for normal feeding.

    In fact, if things go as they are supposed to, in this or any other magazine fed firearm, the round being stripped from the top of the magazine is supposed to be already correctly oriented to enter the chamber.....and actually jump the gap between the magazine and the entrance to the chamber. The feed ramp is ONLY ever designed to serve as a bit of a back up, if the nose of the round is slightly out of position.

    In this particular context however, as I have stated repeatedly, the CM9 feed ramp is set at so steep an angle that it cannot correct the "trajectory" of a mis-feeding round, as the ramp in larger guns will. That is simply due to the lack of space available.

    Mis-feeding, of course (to state the obvious), STARTS in the magazine. If the top round is not oriented correctly, as it leaves the magazine, then mis-feeding is very likely to occur. The fact that, in my CM9, the top-most round, if the magazine is full, nose-dives and is thus NOT oriented correctly as it leaves the magazine - happens for a reason. The reason lies in the magazine. When, as it was in this case, it is very hard to load the last round into the magazine, yet inserting the previous rounds is not difficult, that suggests that the force being applied to the last round is excessive. As indeed, it WAS, in this case. The specified length of the magazine spring was simply too long, and the coils of the spring did not have enough room in the base of the magazine body. So, the spring coils collapsed against each other, thus greatly increasing the force required to insert the last round.

    It is NEVER desirable to have spring coils close against each other completely, during the operation of a coil spring. In fact, in most high-stress applications, this will tend to cause the spring to fracture. A good commonplace example of this is coil springs used in automobile suspensions. Bottoming out, such that the spring coils close completely, is something the engineers try to prevent from happening in all cases - this is why bump-stops are employed.

    I remedied that issue by removing 1 coil from the bottom of the mag springs. Now, the coils do not nest against each other....and the force required to insert the last round into the mags is not excessive. Nor is the force being applied to the top round (when the magazine is FULL) now excessive, as it was before. "Timing" problems with this, as suggested by another, are not part of the equation here. That was proven yesterday, when I put 170 + rounds through the pistol, with NO jams (as long as I used my "little finger trick" on the FIRST round from a full mag.

    As I have stated before, several times, the feed jam problem in my CM9 ONLY occurs with the FIRST round, IF feeding from a FULL magazine. Never otherwise.

    However, some other glitch remains, otherwise the first round feed issue would have disappeared altogether. Perhaps it is a problem with the angle of the trough in the top surface of the mag follower, as asserted by someone else on this forum, who has taken to modifying his follower angles. I don't know - it bears more investigation, though off-hand, I'd say he probably is exactly right.

    I am also quite well aware that the feed ramp in the PM9/CM9 pistols is (the way it is) due to necessity - and I stated exactly that in a previous post. There certainly isn't much room to work with in these little guns. That is why I am not upset with Kahr over this. This problem (with my pistol) may only be due to production tolerances.

    As for "factory ammo", I still won't buy it - literally. The only issues we are talking about here, as regards possible contributions of ammo, are bullet SHAPE and seating DEPTH (or OAL). Since you are a reloader, after all, you are obviously familiar with these terms. Factory ammo would provide nothing in the way of uniqueness for this purpose - and given the current prices, would simply be a waste of money. Surely you can understand that, since you are an experienced reloader. I can duplicate any configuration of such ammo, with reloads. In fact, one of the avenues I will pursue, as regards this very issue, is experimentation with varying the seating depth. As it happens, all of my hand loads, set up for my other, larger pistols, functioned just FINE in the CM9 yesterday. So, it appears that I have nothing to gain from seating
    depth changes. Nevertheless, I will do a bit of experimentation.

    Your suggestion about my magazine catch (or frame) possibly being out of spec seems a good one. In fact, that is the first cogent idea I've seen here, in addressing this issue. Unfortunately, there is no way for me to find out, without sending the CM9 back to Kahr. Even then, it might make no difference. But, I will consider it.



    Popeye:

    Thanks for the idea/ suggestion. But, I have been slapping magazines, to ensure the rounds are seated against the back wall of the mag body.....since I was trained to do this in the Army....a long time ago. SOP it is.....and I ALWAYS do it.

    Along those lines, I would like to ask of you (or anyone else here on the forum) : with the slide locked OPEN, on your CM9/ PM9, how much can the magazine be moved vertically, when it is locked into place ? I can push the mag in my pistol upward, further into the mag well, approximately 0.052"....or a little less than 1/16". This does not seem excessive to me, but.... for feeding that first round (from a full mag) - it makes ALL the difference.

  4. #24
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    Jul 2013
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    With (the magazine hanging low in the mag well) idea in mind, I would like to ask those reading this : how much additional distance can you push your mags upward, with the slide locked open, on YOUR CM9/ PM9 ? With my CM9, there is approximately an additional 0.052" of play.....or somewhat less than 1/16" (0.0625"). Quite a small amount, but in my pistol, it makes ALL the difference.

    If I push the mag up (to close this dimension), while feeding the first round from a full magazine, the result is NO feed jamb. NO nose-diving round.....NO problem....EVERY TIME. If I don't, then the first round nose-dives (and jams) every time.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
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    14

    Default Problem solved

    OK, one last post. I know that most of you don't care, don't believe me, or think I have committed some grand heresy - well fine. I'll share this last bit of information, in the hope that it will help someone else - and then be on my way.



    The full magazine feed issue with my CM9 is now solved. Very simple, as I expected, the real root cause of the problem is excessive magazine spring pressure, which jams the last round too hard against the magazine lips. As a result, the first round out of a FULL magazine invariably would nose-dive and jam against the feed ramp. I found a temporary solution, simply by holding the magazine up in the feed well, by wrapping my little finger under the mag - while chambering the first round.

    That, however, was not a final solution. I had already removed ONE full coil from the magazine spring, in hopes that this would reduce the excess spring pressure against the top round. It DID improve things, though it did not solve the problem completely. So, today I removed a 2ND coil from the mag spring. VOILA - PROBLEM SOLVED. I have tested my CM9 this afternoon, 120 times, 60 by hand racking the slide from the closed position.... and 60 by sling-shoting it from the locked open position. The ammo I used is the same as I fired yesterday, at the range - 125 grain truncated cone/ flat point. I used this ammo for test purposes because such a bullet shape is the most likely to give feed problems - in other words, a worse-case test. I also tested 30 times with my jacketed HP carry ammo. I will test at least 50 more cycles with the HP carry ammo, before the next time I get to the range. However, I can say, at this point, that the problem is solved. NOT ONE feed problem has occurred, since removing the 2nd mag spring coil. I now have NO need to lift up on the magazine - so all of my testing this afternoon has been done without that.

    So, there it is. Believe it, don't believe it, whatever.....I don't care. I hope that someone, at some point, benefits from this information. After all, that is what this kind of forum is for, is it not ?

    In the meantime, I have decided that I don't need the grief from arguing with certain people who won't deal with reality, for whatever reason.

    So, goodbye. Moderators - feel free to delete my registration forthwith.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    I sure spent alot o ftime trying to hlep u out and at no time di d I insult anything u did either. I do kind of take offense to ur attitude on this maybe your last post.although most of my suggestiosto you were not successful ones either, the cutting of the second coil was also suggested to you by me as sumpin to try, although not a fan of cutting mag coils in ur case it seems to work

    Sometimes a fix can be found by circumventing the issue itself and doing something to offset it. Not a good way to do things but for some it works ok for them. Most al lthe forum members here that I read seemed to want to help you as berst possable, normaly when one cops an attitute it produces a reverse attitufe then it is all down hill after that.

    If u walk with a limp in the left leg u can just shorten the right leg to even it out, and u can call it a fix but in reality the issue is still there but in disquise..

    U got the gun runninbg right, glad for that,if u sodecide to leaveas you stated, then IMO u never really bel0onged here in the first place.
    . My PM9 has over 40,000+ rounds through it, and runs much better than an illegal trying to get across our border


    NRA BENEFACTOR MEMBER


    MAY GOD BLESS MUGGSY

  7. #27
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    Feb 2013
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    169

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    Last year I ordered some mag springs from Kahr for my MK-9. The springs they sent were way too long, you could not possibly stuff them into the mags and load more than three rounds.
    So I called Kahr, and they not only swore to me they sent the right springs, but they maintained that they are all the same!

    So it is far from impossible that Kahr installed the wrong springs in his mags and his solution is actually the correct one.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Woodstock, GA
    Posts
    357

    Default Re: Thoughts on the CM9 feed issues

    I am glad you found it. Often times, different solutions work for different people. I have an extra follower and seven round spring. It would be interesting to try your theory on my CW9.

    No need to take off. This forum doesn't have the same ambiance as some of the better forums, but there are good people here (with the appropriate bell curve number of :censored.
    (this space intentionally left blank)

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    130

    Default and ur

    Quote Originally Posted by scosgt View Post
    Last year I ordered some mag springs from Kahr for my MK-9. The springs they sent were way too long, you could not possibly stuff them into the mags and load more than three rounds.
    So I called Kahr, and they not only swore to me they sent the right springs, but they maintained that they are all the same!

    So it is far from impossible that Kahr installed the wrong springs in his mags and his solution is actually the correct one.
    correct in ur assmption to. but we really don't know that for sure. We have read befrore of 7 rund mags springs bein shortened a and good results.

    All kahr magazines come to them fully assembled from the vendor, Anything can happen..
    . My PM9 has over 40,000+ rounds through it, and runs much better than an illegal trying to get across our border


    NRA BENEFACTOR MEMBER


    MAY GOD BLESS MUGGSY

  10. #30
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    Sep 2009
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    Wow! How did I miss all this when things have been so boring of late, totally missed it.

    We're done here.
    In Memory of Paul "Dietrich" Stines.
    Dad: Say something nice to your cousin Shirley
    Dietrich: For a fat girl you sure don't sweat much.
    Cue sound of Head slap.

    RIP Muggsy & TMan

    "If you are a warrior legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that JOCKO will not come today."

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