Kahr CW.380 XTP or Hydrashock?

[dbp67]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=wOwCXXpEP50

Take this for what it's worth. I saw this video and googled Precision One and found that they are right here in SC. I went to a local gun show and met the owner and purchased several boxes of this round. They all fed, fired and ejected flawlessly. I use it for EDC now.

[garyb]

Yes, Precision One appears to be a good 380 carry ammo too. Good penetration and decent expansion.

[kwh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=wOwCXXpEP50

Take this for what it's worth. I saw this video and googled Precision One and found that they are right here in SC. I went to a local gun show and met the owner and purchased several boxes of this round. They all fed, fired and ejected flawlessly. I use it for EDC now.

Thanks for the report. This was my original question to begin the thread, If any one had tried either the XTP or HydraShock bullets in the Kahr .380 for functional reliability.

[booger switch]

Precision One .380 with the XTP runs through my P380 like crap through a goose. Very accurate. I have a good supply of Hydra-Shok on hand, but the P1 is what I'll be carrying.

Starline brass. Very nice touch.

[gassah]

kwh,

I tried the HPR today and it ran well through my CW380. I've had trouble with Federal Hydrashoks. P1s have been ordered.

[kwh]

kwh,

I tried the HPR today and it ran well through my CW380. I've had trouble with Federal Hydrashoks. P1s have been ordered.

Thanks to all for the feedback.

[SaltyNC]

You may be interested in this, based on actual shootings:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

The numbers above are very similar for 9mm and .45, though clearly both of those rounds produce more damage. This study was an eye opener for me.

The XTP bullet in .380 seems to have the best combination of expansion VS penetration. Buffalo Bore expands great, beautiful expansion pattern, but it doesn't penetrate as deeply. Unless crazed or on drugs, you would sure as heck feel the Buffalo Bore round hammer into you.

I am just beginning to test defensive ammo in my .380, and my plan is to see if it will run reliably when mixing rounds. I have given a good bit of thought to this. It is a hard call and I know of no stats that will give a definitive best practice.

One could argue that since most stops are psychological, your first round should be expanding and hard hitting like the high pressure Buffalo Bore. That would let the person know without a doubt that they have been hit and hit hard, and hopefully will stop any aggression. If they don't stop, follow that up with either XTP or hard round in the next two rounds. That will get you the penetration you need for a physical stop, assuming you can place additional rounds into the aggressor.

Another argument could be made that the first round should be an XTP, since it will give both penetration and expansion, and could stop the aggression by physically destroying the CNS and registering psychologically, then follow that up with more XTP or a round bullet if heavy, thick layers of clothing will need to be penetrated. Season may affect what rounds to carry, as well. Summer and t-shirts, XTP. Down coats, sweaters, shirts, and thermals, maybe you will need that hard round bullet if you are willing to accept the risks to innocent bystanders.

But, as others have said, the cons of using hard ammo are that innocent bystanders could be hit if you miss or if the bullet exits the aggressor's body. Looking at hit/miss stats from LEOs who train regularly isn't very heartening. Under stress, despite better training than most of us will have, shots are often missed. Some of the misses may be explained by distance, multiple attackers, etc, but I think its been well documented that when people are under assault, and adrenaline is dumping, we tend not to perform up to our normal standards. We tend to suck out loud. Hands trembling, no fine motor control, stumbling backwards, freezing up, slow reaction time, tunnel vision, awareness of anything other than immediate threat completely gone. For that reason, I plan to do as much training as I can simulating those circumstances -- cold hands, pushing heart rate to max, etc. before drawing and firing. It will never be the same, but it will at least get closer to what one might actually experience. I hope I never do, though. I have only met one person (nice guy, seems normal) who shot and killed someone who it didn't greatly affect in a negative way.

After reading this, I'm tending to lean toward using XTP bullets only. It should still hit hard enough to register a good psych reaction, and at the same time, should produce good penetration and wound channel.

Here is the Shooting the Bull analysis that others here have pointed me toward. The more blue, the better:
http://shootingthebull.net/blog/fina...cp-ammo-quest/

This is how I've been thinking about what to carry. I hope it helps. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a clear consensus on "the best".

SaltyNC

[SaltyNC]

Just FYI, Precision Ammo has the 50-box XTP back in stock. It is as inexpensive as most range ammo. I just ordered 200 rnds to try.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I have no idea about the quality control standards for ammo companies. Everything I've heard about Precision One has been excellent, but I would be lying if I didn't admit that it concerns me a little that they are smaller. Sometimes that is actually a good thing, sometimes not. For that reason, any ammo I plan to carry, I first test fire 100 rounds just to make sure the ammo feeds, etc. After that test is satisfied, I then take at minimum a 10% random sampling from each box of ammo I will use for carrying and test fire it for reliability. My thinking is that if there is a problem, it can affect a batch of ammo, so it would hopefully be caught in my sample run of each box. It's not foolproof, but it is better than nothing.

I just think, what if Louis, who has been producing .380 for the last 5 years, needs to take a leave of absence, and in his place, they bring in Johnny. Johnny is green as Popeye's spinach. He makes mistakes during his first two or three batches that no one catches. Or, what if Cletus knocks over a container of primer onto a dirty, dusty floor. He's worried he will lose his job, so he sweeps it up and puts it back into the container before anyone can see. Far fetched? Probably, but stuff like this happens even in medical-grade production. Or, imagine the head of quality control at Kahr is fired, but gets a new job as quality control for an ammo production company? Sorry, couldn't resist.

SaltyNC

[thomjb]

I do like XTP bullets, try the Fiocchi Extrema...

[Cynthia S]

I know this is an old thread, but that seems appropriate to my question. A lot of years have pasted since the Shooting the Bull review that gave very good marks to Precision One XTP ammo for the P380. Does anyone have a comment on any possible changes in the production practices of Precision One or the reliability of the reviewed ammo? Any new reviews that might conflict with the Shooting Bull review?

I'm also a little confused by what seems conflicting info on Hornady HPs. The Shooting Bull review had Hornady CD pretty low in his review, and Hornady XTP pretty much at the top. But somewhere I read that the only difference in the 2 hornadys was that one had a polymer insert in the hollow. This doesn't seem right.

Final concern. The last post in this thread suggested that one use Fiocchi Extrema... . But I recall when I was researching my CT380, that Fiocchi Perfecta was a brand that caused feed problems because they were Italian made and didn't meet US standards of rim thickness. Are the Extrema... OK now in Kahr 380s?

Thanks all, Cynthia