PM9 Trigger Upgrades

[spikesrus850t]

That is very good sir, I had my real first experience last month and I tell that the target looked like I used a shotgun. It is obviously something I need to work on and will attempt to get it down to an acceptable size. I like my PM9 very much and would like to try and improve the way it shoots. Thanks again.

[itsthelaw]

Focus should be on the tool handling the gun, not on the tool in you hand. The gun is pretty simple, but the shooter is more complex. Many more variables with the shooter than the gun.

[bugs]

I'm surprised no one has offered this thought; if you are doing trigger mods on a gun that will be used in competition only, fine, good luck to you; if you do trigger mods to your EDC gun and heaven forbid you have to use it, you,the gun, and your ammo WILL be gone over with the FINEST TOOTH COMB you ever saw, and you better have a lawyer who CONVINCINGLY EXPLAIN why the trigger was changed from mfg.specs , because SOMEBODY is going to use these mods in a wrongful death suit to paint you as a crazed Rambutt. I have no personal experiences thank God, but in today's sue happy world it seems to make sense to keep yourself as far beyond reproach as possible.

NRA LIFER
IDPA BELEIVER

[Bawanna]

It's come up many times before, just not in this thread.

Your correct in that it is a sue happy world we live in.

One reason I never carry reloads, only store bought factory. It won't save me in court but it might help. Anything you do to a gun mechanically or cosmetically is going to paint you as a crazed Rambutt, kind of a catchy title.

Battle on the street is easy, well not easy but pretty clear cut. Battle in courts with lawyers is guaranteed to get ugly regardless if you are right or wrong. That's just what lawyers do.

[b4uqzme]

I'm surprised no one has offered this thought; if you are doing trigger mods on a gun that will be used in competition only, fine, good luck to you; if you do trigger mods to your EDC gun and heaven forbid you have to use it, you,the gun, and your ammo WILL be gone over with the FINEST TOOTH COMB you ever saw, and you better have a lawyer who CONVINCINGLY EXPLAIN why the trigger was changed from mfg.specs , because SOMEBODY is going to use these mods in a wrongful death suit to paint you as a crazed Rambutt. I have no personal experiences thank God, but in today's sue happy world it seems to make sense to keep yourself as far beyond reproach as possible.

NRA LIFER
IDPA BELEIVER

Valid point. But if those mods actually help you shoot better and survive the ordeal, it would be worth it wouldn't it? I try to carry what gives me the best chance of winning --- balanced out as best as possible with all those other factors like liability, conceal-ability, etc.

[finpro]

I have read similar comments about modifications by those I respect and I believe them. I have also read that if a shooting is lawful and justifiable and not plausibly the fault of gun modification, it seldom goes further and I believe this as well. I have no doubt that prosecutor and trial lawyer overreaches do occur, but I wonder if judges and juries buy into it. I have been impressed by the thoughtfulness and diligence of juries on which I have served. That said, I have never been involved in any proceeding involving a gun modification. Outcomes would likely depend on where this takes place as much as the facts and circumstances of what has occurred.

Gun modifications are common, of course, and frequently concern grips, sights, finishes, internal polishing, etc. that are likely uncontroversial. With triggers, I suspect that valid defenses would be that modifications were made by routine or upgraded parts replacement, break-in and wear, to accommodate a handicap or disability, etc. Replacing OEM parts with those that are manufacturer options or similar to those, such as Glock trigger parts consisting of springs and release geometry, which are available in other models, would be easily defensible. (I modified my Glock to a heavier 8 pound New York trigger spring and a lighter release - a combination I read was safer and better for carry and which I prefer.) The options a few in Kahrs, but internal polishing and the Wolff lighter spring can do a lot. In a prospective legal proceeding, I think the test would be whether the modification made the gun unsafe for its intended use. House guns would likely have greater latitude than carry guns, I think. I also imagine that a reasonable comparison to common police pistols in trigger weight, length of pull and reset, etc. should be a reasonable defense.

This is not meant as legal advice, which I am not qualified to give. Nothing always succeeds. While I would avoid ammunition with names like "Super Atomic Devastator" and engraved slogans like "Kill them all and let God sort them out", I come down on the side of anything that improves your chances in a gunfight is likely better in the long run. A lawyer once told me that, regarding self-defense, he would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six. (He was later tried by twelve in an unrelated matter.)

Something to try for faster shooting is a "Bill Drill" that I encountered years ago. It was supposedly invented by Bill Wilson of Wilson Tactical and the founder of IDPA. IIRC, it consists of shooting six rounds into the inner COM area of an IDPA target, as fast as possible, until all are hits. Initially, this might be very close to the target. When six fast hits can be done repeatedly, the distances increase. This balances speed and accuracy, which a different discipline for most shooters, and which are important in real encounters. (Happily, I have never even been close to a real encounter, so keep this in mind.) While Kahr triggers are not perfect for fast shooting, with practice, great improvement is possible. I would start with such practice. At the very least, you would learn if the issue is, in fact, the trigger. I found that, in Kahrs, I did not like .40 S&W or MK pistols. A lesson to me was that more goes into fast shooting than a trigger, such as recoil recovery, firmness of my grip and length of pistol grip. I believe that too fast a trigger may diminish accuracy - just a thought. I suggest you find what works best for you, which may well be different from what works best for others.

[finpro]

Correction: Bill Wilson's company is "Wilson Combat", makers of high end 1911 pattern pistols and parts.

Also, I remembered something that helps to fire Kahrs faster. You can shorten the trigger pull by installing a trigger overtravel stop. Mine consist of small rubber corks, cut to fit and glued onto the frame behind the trigger. It is cut short enough to allow the trigger to travel rearward just beyond where the gun fires and then prevent further trigger travel. This does not shorten trigger travel from the forward position to the striker release point, but, by preventing further backward travel, it allows forward trigger motion sooner, which can shorten the intervals between shots. By having less finger motion, it promotes better accuracy, since there is less motion from the firing point until the bullet leaves the barrel. Basically, it has the advantages of any overtravel stop, but due to the length of a Kahr trigger pull and the effort required, it may be more helpful. This modification works on other long travel DAO pistols as well.

Mine are not pretty due to a sloppy job gluing the cork in place, but are effective in my old style P9 and PM9. Once installed, they are very unobtrusive. It is not a permanent modification and could be removed to restore the gun to its earlier condition. I think the black rubber corks are for test tubes or similar lab uses and are inexpensive. I never installed one on my newer K9 because its overtravel is minimal. I am not familiar with the newer polymer Kahrs and this may or may not be helpful. FWIW, I doubt a hostile lawyer could make much of it as it appears harmless and can be justified as making the gun more accurate and comfortable to shoot.

I wish someone would make a similar product which would be more elegant than my crude setup and allow adjustment. On mine, once installed, the overtravel can be increased by removing small slices of the front of the cork.

[CJB]

if you do trigger mods to your EDC gun and heaven forbid you have to use it, you,the gun, and your ammo WILL be gone over with the FINEST TOOTH COMB you ever saw, and you better have a lawyer who CONVINCINGLY EXPLAIN why the trigger was changed from mfg.specs , because SOMEBODY is going to use these mods in a wrongful death suit to paint you as a crazed Rambutt.

Massad Ayoob has made a livelihood of preaching that, but to the best of my knowledge, there has only been one case where this was brought up, he was on it, and has run that mantra for a long time. Sounds very warm and fuzzy. Sounds like the sort of thing that would make the boys at the bar rub their whiskers and mutter "hmmmm". In real practice, its not much of a big deal.

Put this way.... You bought a car, you put wide tires on it. You put low restriction exhaust and a new "chip" in its brain. You did this and that and all the little doo-dads to get "performance" from it. You're going down the road and a kid pops out from between two parked cars and there is a traffic fatality. Will they go after you because of your car's performance modifications? You were observing all traffic laws. Everything legal. No way you could see the kid, as they were shorter than the cars, and they just came running out at the last possible instant. Are the cars mods a relevant contributing factor to the traffic fatality, and are you responsible because of those?

[b4uqzme]

^^^ good example

[Bawanna]

I disagree. Even liberals have cars, even lawyers and Judges have cars. To them a car is a necessity, mode of transportation with no evil intent or value. They don't have the capacity to associate big engines or hood scoops or fancy paint jobs as anything other than making the car nicer.

Guns on the other hand are evil before they leave the drawing board. To them John Moses Browning was the devil incarnate for ever inventing such things.

So any modification can only make it more evil, more dangerous and of course much less desirable. They should be melted down into man hole covers or something useful like bumpers for their BMW's and Mercedes.

Perhaps a better example would be pressure cookers, since most probably aren't much for cooking, all they know is them being used for making bombs, thus evil. So anything you do to modify your pressure cooker has to make it more evil and make it blow up bigger.

Your witness.....................