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Thread: A defacto gun registry in Florida?

  1. #1
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    Default A defacto gun registry in Florida?

    By Walter Pacheco, Orlando Sentinel
    11:31 p.m. EDT, July 7, 2010

    If you bought a .40-caliber Smith & Wesson Sigma series pistol in 2004 or 2005, Daytona Beach police want your personal information.

    They think it could help them catch a serial killer.

    Daytona Beach police Chief Michael J. Chitwood sent letters to gun shops across Central Florida asking for the names, addresses and phone numbers of customers who purchased that type of gun during that time frame.

    Police think a serial killer shot three prostitutes — and possibly another woman — to death using that weapon. It's the newest lead they are following aggressively in the stalled six-year investigation.

    "Forensic tests revealed that all of the victims were killed with the same type of weapon …," reads a follow-up letter from Chitwood that one of the gun-shop owners shared with the Orlando Sentinel. "These weapons were shipped to you by Smith & Wesson or a gun wholesaler during the period of 01/01/2004 through 12/31/2005. This information would greatly assist in the investigation of these homicides."

    Gun advocates are blasting the initiative, saying the information police are seeking is illegal to collect in Florida, but serial-killer experts applaud it for invigorating a cold case.

    "Working with the gun shops [to catch a serial killer] seems to be a brilliant move," said criminal-justice professor Tod W. Burke of Radford University in Virginia. Although Burke is not familiar with the case, he said the move shows "police will follow the lead and do what they can within the legal realms."

    The problem is that Florida law prohibits law enforcement or any other government agency from requesting and compiling the personal information of gun buyers. And that's why the move by police is enraging gun advocates, such as those at the National Rifle Association, who have fought for strong laws that prohibit the creation of a gun registry in Florida.

    "What are they trying to do? Show up on someone's doorstep and ask to see their gun?" asked Marion Hammer, a National Rifle Association lobbyist in Tallahassee. "This is exactly what the law was intended to stop. They [police] need to read the law."

    Chitwood wouldn't explain his request to gun shops because the serial-killer case is "an active criminal investigation," a Police Department spokesman said in an e-mail to the Sentinel. Its not clear how many shops he sent the letters to or how many responded.

    Several gun-shop owners contacted would not comment about Chitwood's initiative or whether they had cooperated with the request.

    But Scott Buckwald, co-owner of Buck's Gun Rack off International Speedway Boulevard in Daytona Beach, said the Smith & Wesson police think is linked to the four slayings is a popular, full-sized weapon used for personal protection and target practice.

    Buckwald said he received the request from Chitwood sometime in 2009 and allowed investigators to review his records because it was not a "fishing expedition."

    "For the most part, I'm going to always help law enforcement if they are working on a case and have specific requests. My records are open to them," Buckwald said. "But I do think they are looking for a needle in a haystack."

    Laws barring gun registry

    The hundreds of gun shops in Central Florida and the thousands of firearm licenses issued are enough to make the search for the serial killer an uphill battle.

    As of June 30, more than 121,634 concealed-weapons permits and other firearm licenses have been issued in Orange, Osceola, Seminole, Lake, Brevard and Volusia counties, according to the licensing division of the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.

    There are about 444 gun shops across the region, and that still doesn't account for the guns reported stolen to law enforcement every day — or those sold at gun shows.

    Complicating Chitwood's initiative is the lack of a comprehensive national system of gun registration, something law enforcement has long pushed for.

    Although Hawaii and the District of Columbia require registration of all firearms, nine states — including Florida — prohibit a gun registry, with some exceptions. California and Pennsylvania only require gun owners to register long-barrel guns.

    Federal law prohibits the use of the National Instant Criminal Background Check System to create any system of registration or database of firearms or gun owners. However, gun shops across the country keep records of customers who buy guns.

    "Police can ask the gun shops if they can be allowed review the information [on gun owners] and inspect it, but not compile or copy it," Hammer said.

    Stalled case

    Some experts think Daytona Beach investigators have run into a dead end in the case because the serial killer has not struck in several years.

    "When they [serial killers] stop, you're kind of stuck," said Jay Corzine, chairman of the University of Central Florida's sociology department.

    Corzine points to the case of notorious serial killer Dennis Lynn Rader, known as the BTK strangler for his method of binding, torturing and killing his victims. Rader's reign of terror in Kansas started in 1974 and ended in 1991. The case went cold because police had few clues to follow.

    Rader told police in Wichita after his 2005 arrest that he had stopped killing because he was bored and his children had grown up.

    "Serial killers sometimes get bored, move out of the area or die," Corzine said. "It would be an easier case to follow if there were more recent killings."

    Although he supports police for following the lead of the Smith & Wesson possibly linked to the serial killer, Corzine admits it will be a tough lead to chase.

    "It's definitely a sign to follow up on, but once a gun is purchased, you lose track of it [because there is no registry]," Corzine said. "That's certainly true in Florida."

    Henry Pierson Curtis of the Sentinel staff contributed to this report. Walter Pacheco can be reached at wpacheco@orlandosentinel.com or 407-420-6262.

    Serial killings?

    A .40-caliber Smith & Wesson firearm was used in the killings of these four women, who Daytona Beach police think are victims of a serial killer:

    •LaQuetta Mae Gunther, Dec. 26, 2004. •Julie Ann Green, January 2006 . •Iwana Patton, February 2006. •Stacey Gage, January 2008.

    According to an FBI report on serial killings, the four Daytona Beach killings are among 19 deaths along the I-4 corridor that are unsolved and connected to serial killings that the bureau suspects were committed by truckers.

    Gun shops in Central Florida

    Orange: 81 Osceola: 16 Seminole: 32 Lake: 45 Brevard: 112 Volusia: 76 Polk: 82

    SOURCE: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

  2. #2
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    Replying to my own post here..but things that make you go hmmmmmm....

    1) How can ballistics forensics tell them that it was a Sigma 40 within a
    specific mfgr date range? Was there something unique to the barrel rifling that
    makes the gun brand and model identifiable and sets the date of mfgr?

    2) Granted the above is true, why limit the search to Central Florida gunshops? That
    sounds like looking for a needle in a haystack but limiting yourself to only one
    portion of the haystack. The gun could have easily been brought in from
    Georgia or Virginia, etc.

    3) Given #2, how is this NOT an illegal fishing expedition through gunshop records?

    4) I know at least one gun shop in Daytona Beach that I will never purchase a gun
    from......ever.

    M-

  3. #3
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    I agree that it's a huge haystack and the gun could have been purchased anywhere. They mention truckers, heck it could have been bought here in Washington for all the know.
    They may know more than they are letting on also. That is quite often the case and at this point they are obviously desparate to get somethng to go on with this case.
    I'm not so sure that I would boycott a shop for cooperating with local (emphasis on local) law enforcement. They need to get along with LE for a number of reasons. If the shop get burglarized they don't want the cops not happy with them.
    I really don't see it as a registration scheme myself and hopefully they will realize how tough this would be and focus on something hopefully more productive.
    I could be wrong too, been there before once, I think it was 1968, or maybe 67.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bawanna45cal View Post
    I agree that it's a huge haystack and the gun could have been purchased anywhere. They mention truckers, heck it could have been bought here in Washington for all the know.
    They may know more than they are letting on also. That is quite often the case and at this point they are obviously desparate to get somethng to go on with this case.
    I'm not so sure that I would boycott a shop for cooperating with local (emphasis on local) law enforcement. They need to get along with LE for a number of reasons. If the shop get burglarized they don't want the cops not happy with them.
    I really don't see it as a registration scheme myself and hopefully they will realize how tough this would be and focus on something hopefully more productive.
    I could be wrong too, been there before once, I think it was 1968, or maybe 67.

    I hear you on the cooperation issue. I agree that gunshops can be caught
    between a rock and a hard place in situations like this.
    The ATF requires that gun shops keep records of firearms transactions
    but the moment that LE (be it local or federal) USES those records
    in a manner that essentially treats it as a registry, which given the
    information we have at the moment, sure seems to be the case here then it is
    clearly in violation of current state law. And for gunshops that make
    excuses for this behavior and readily cooperate by lifting the kimono
    I say "A Pox on your house....!"

    I actually rather like Chief Chitwood. He usually has the cajones to call a
    spade a spade and not back down. (Which is more than I can say for the very
    PC Orlando police chief and her husband the equally PC Orange county
    sheriff.)

    I also get the frustration they may have in getting a lead on this cold case
    and I want them to succeed in catching this murderer. But not at the expense
    of the constitution, be it state or federal. This sets a dangerous precedence
    in my opinion and should be vigorously resisted in the courts of law.

    M-

  5. #5
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    If they have a name or demographic in mind and would reveal it to me I would be willing to go through my records myself looking for a match, but would not turn records over to them to copy, etc. Of course if the domo's were specific enough I'd tell them some pertinent info to narrow their request down and ask them to get a warrant if they need more. It's an old case so I suspect the BG isn't active now. Some will say I'd be stepping over the line but I don't agree.

    Of course all that is hypothetical as I don't have a gun shop and am not in Florida.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldLincoln View Post
    If they have a name or demographic in mind and would reveal it to me I would be willing to go through my records myself looking for a match, but would not turn records over to them to copy, etc. Of course if the domo's were specific enough I'd tell them some pertinent info to narrow their request down and ask them to get a warrant if they need more. It's an old case so I suspect the BG isn't active now. Some will say I'd be stepping over the line but I don't agree.

    Of course all that is hypothetical as I don't have a gun shop and am not in Florida.
    One of the reasons that records are kept is in the event that the LE recover
    a firearm used in a crime and HAVE a serial# they can run down it's history.
    I think that is absolutely legitimate to research the gun's history in this
    scenario as a function of law enforcement. If it turned out to be a gun that I
    bought and subsequently sold I'd have no problems showing them my personal
    transaction records. (One reason I keep meticulous buy/sell records for all my
    personal firearms transactions).

    However, in this case, as I understand it.....they have some forensic data
    that points to this particular make, model and mfgr date range (of which I'm
    somewhat skeptical as to how they can know what year the gun used was
    produced) and they are speculating that it was sold in Central Florida and
    are asking gun shops permission to "browse" their records. Florida State law
    prohibits them from copying or making lists from that browsing.
    So what? They will commit thousands of records sold to memory? Of course
    they will be making lists! How can they not?

    But as you noted, if there was probable cause they would have a warrant
    in which case it would be a LEGAL search as opposed to a fishing expedition
    that treads dangerously close to stomping on the constitution and may open
    the door to future abuse.

    M-

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael W. View Post
    By Walter Pacheco, Orlando Sentinel
    11:31 p.m. EDT, July 7, 2010

    If you bought a .40-caliber Smith & Wesson Sigma series pistol in 2004 or 2005, Daytona Beach police want your personal information.

    They think it could help them catch a serial killer.

    Daytona Beach police Chief Michael J. Chitwood sent letters to gun shops across Central Florida asking for the names, addresses and phone numbers of customers who purchased that type of gun during that time frame.

    Police think a serial killer shot three prostitutes — and possibly another woman — to death using that weapon. It's the newest lead they are following aggressively in the stalled six-year investigation.

    "Forensic tests revealed that all of the victims were killed with the same type of weapon …," reads a follow-up letter from Chitwood that one of the gun-shop owners shared with the Orlando Sentinel. "These weapons were shipped to you by Smith & Wesson or a gun wholesaler during the period of 01/01/2004 through 12/31/2005. This information would greatly assist in the investigation of these homicides."

    Gun advocates are blasting the initiative, saying the information police are seeking is illegal to collect in Florida, but serial-killer experts applaud it for invigorating a cold case.

    "Working with the gun shops [to catch a serial killer] seems to be a brilliant move," said criminal-justice professor Tod W. Burke of Radford University in Virginia. Although Burke is not familiar with the case, he said the move shows "police will follow the lead and do what they can within the legal realms."

    The problem is that Florida law prohibits law enforcement or any other government agency from requesting and compiling the personal information of gun buyers. And that's why the move by police is enraging gun advocates, such as those at the National Rifle Association, who have fought for strong laws that prohibit the creation of a gun registry in Florida.

    "What are they trying to do? Show up on someone's doorstep and ask to see their gun?" asked Marion Hammer, a National Rifle Association lobbyist in Tallahassee. "This is exactly what the law was intended to stop. They [police] need to read the law."

    Chitwood wouldn't explain his request to gun shops because the serial-killer case is "an active criminal investigation," a Police Department spokesman said in an e-mail to the Sentinel. Its not clear how many shops he sent the letters to or how many responded.

    Several gun-shop owners contacted would not comment about Chitwood's initiative or whether they had cooperated with the request.

    But Scott Buckwald, co-owner of Buck's Gun Rack off International Speedway Boulevard in Daytona Beach, said the Smith & Wesson police think is linked to the four slayings is a popular, full-sized weapon used for personal protection and target practice.

    Buckwald said he received the request from Chitwood sometime in 2009 and allowed investigators to review his records because it was not a "fishing expedition."

    "For the most part, I'm going to always help law enforcement if they are working on a case and have specific requests. My records are open to them," Buckwald said. "But I do think they are looking for a needle in a haystack."

    Laws barring gun registry

    The hundreds of gun shops in Central Florida and the thousands of firearm licenses issued are enough to make the search for the serial killer an uphill battle.

    As of June 30, more than 121,634 concealed-weapons permits and other firearm licenses have been issued in Orange, Osceola, Seminole, Lake, Brevard and Volusia counties, according to the licensing division of the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.

    There are about 444 gun shops across the region, and that still doesn't account for the guns reported stolen to law enforcement every day — or those sold at gun shows.

    Complicating Chitwood's initiative is the lack of a comprehensive national system of gun registration, something law enforcement has long pushed for.

    Although Hawaii and the District of Columbia require registration of all firearms, nine states — including Florida — prohibit a gun registry, with some exceptions. California and Pennsylvania only require gun owners to register long-barrel guns.

    Federal law prohibits the use of the National Instant Criminal Background Check System to create any system of registration or database of firearms or gun owners. However, gun shops across the country keep records of customers who buy guns.

    "Police can ask the gun shops if they can be allowed review the information [on gun owners] and inspect it, but not compile or copy it," Hammer said.

    Stalled case

    Some experts think Daytona Beach investigators have run into a dead end in the case because the serial killer has not struck in several years.

    "When they [serial killers] stop, you're kind of stuck," said Jay Corzine, chairman of the University of Central Florida's sociology department.

    Corzine points to the case of notorious serial killer Dennis Lynn Rader, known as the BTK strangler for his method of binding, torturing and killing his victims. Rader's reign of terror in Kansas started in 1974 and ended in 1991. The case went cold because police had few clues to follow.

    Rader told police in Wichita after his 2005 arrest that he had stopped killing because he was bored and his children had grown up.

    "Serial killers sometimes get bored, move out of the area or die," Corzine said. "It would be an easier case to follow if there were more recent killings."

    Although he supports police for following the lead of the Smith & Wesson possibly linked to the serial killer, Corzine admits it will be a tough lead to chase.

    "It's definitely a sign to follow up on, but once a gun is purchased, you lose track of it [because there is no registry]," Corzine said. "That's certainly true in Florida."

    Henry Pierson Curtis of the Sentinel staff contributed to this report. Walter Pacheco can be reached at wpacheco@orlandosentinel.com or 407-420-6262.

    Serial killings?

    A .40-caliber Smith & Wesson firearm was used in the killings of these four women, who Daytona Beach police think are victims of a serial killer:

    •LaQuetta Mae Gunther, Dec. 26, 2004. •Julie Ann Green, January 2006 . •Iwana Patton, February 2006. •Stacey Gage, January 2008.

    According to an FBI report on serial killings, the four Daytona Beach killings are among 19 deaths along the I-4 corridor that are unsolved and connected to serial killings that the bureau suspects were committed by truckers.

    Gun shops in Central Florida

    Orange: 81 Osceola: 16 Seminole: 32 Lake: 45 Brevard: 112 Volusia: 76 Polk: 82

    SOURCE: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
    I had covered this story and it was really very surprising story for me because this kind of story was covered by me for the first time. That serial killer was so horrible and it was hard for our police to catch.

  8. #8
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    I'm no lawyer, although I pretend to be on my Tinder app, but wouldn't any court throw out the case based on police breaking laws to catch a perp?

  9. #9
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    Here's what I have to say on this, after being in the gun biz back from the mid 1980's to late 1990's.

    Go pound sand.

    The locals, and state have no legal authority to examine the 4473 records. Only ATF does. There were a few times, when we told local PD to pound sand, go to ATF. In fact, ATF does not really like it when you share "their records" with local PD. Just saying. And... yes our shop was in Florida, but not in the swampland that I currently call home.

    On more than a few occasions, ATF asked for specific records, and we were happy to oblige. I have no idea if those specifics came from local PD up throught ATF and back down to us, but, we were asked for specifics about a certain make, model, caliber, and serial number. Never, not once were asked for a reverse search, even though the software I wrote, and had approved by ATF, was capable of doing that. Not once. Every time it was "here's the gun we're looking for, show us the person".

    On a few occasions, we had "detective" staff of local and county departments ask for records in a similar manner, and we politely, and in a friendly way, told them to go through ATF if they had an issue. In at least one instance, we had county LE go to court to get the record, and it was tossed - because those records are ATF's not even the FFL's to hand out.

    And, ATF requires a seven year local custody, after which time, those records may be turned over to ATF. What they do with 'em.... who knows. We regularly send records to ATF because frankly, we didn't want them, or to be held responsible for them (which you are if you keep custody of them).

    I don't know of a single actual "gun store" that would turn over records, unless ATF asked for them. Local police and county LE, and state LE and even FBI can be told to pound sand, the records are ATFs, and they need to go though ATF.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael W. View Post
    I hear you on the cooperation issue. I agree that gunshops can be caught
    between a rock and a hard place in situations like this.
    Only if the PD or LEA decides they want to retaliate through, say, code enforcement, or other such nonsense.

    They won't do that.

    Here's the thing, Chitwood knows he has no right to those records in the manner he wants them. So he went to the media in an effort to drum up support for his "cooperative request".

    He knows he has to go through ATF, and he's trying to weasel this situation. Shame on him.

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