I'm uncertain...

[skiflydive]

So I see a lot of posts on here about accuracy. Pattern spread, x hits at x feet, 2" pattern at 21' etc. I can run 50 9mm or .380 into a 9"paper plate at 21' with ease but I really wonder about a SHTF situation. I recall the press video about the Boston Bomber situation. It sounded like hundreds of LEO shots fired and yet the bros were only hit by a few. The one who was killed was killed by his brother running over him with their car as I recall. So, if the LEO's with all their practice (this is only one example) can't hit the perp how likely are us reglar citizens to hit the target in said SHTF situation? I'm ALL ABOUT shooting practice and hitting the target etc. but I wonder how effective at center mass shooting we would be or if we'd all be purdy good at hitting something within 10-20 degrees of where we're pointing. I carry, I can hit center mass every time at the range, I wonder how good I (we) really are if the people who practice all the time miss a lot. Just asking.

[Bawanna]

Police don't get to practice nearly enough. It's always a budget thing.

Until you look the elephant in the eye one never knows what or how they will do. What their reaction will be. This is true with police too.

That's why they focus on muscle memory and repetition and hope it carries the day when it happens for real.

[Planedude]

Posted recently in a thread by TD2K :

"Tom Givens of Rangemaster in Memphis has trained thousands of students. He keeps track of student involved shootings, and has a presentation with stats on number of rounds fired, distance, etc.

To date, he has had 67 students involved in a violent encounter where shots were fired. The record is 65 wins, 0 losses, 2 forfeits. The 2 forfeits were not carrying a gun, and they aren't alive to explain why they were not carrying.

Any time I even CONSIDER leaving the house unarmed (I'm just running to the store for a loaf of bread, I don't want to gear back up just for that, I'll only be gone 5 minutes, etc) a little voice in my head (which sounds a LOT like Tom's voice), says "Don't be number three!". That does the trick."

If you carry, train reasonably and stay aware while out in the world... You'll do fine. Just be prepared for the aftermath as that can be as hard as the gunfight you never asked for.

Of course on the plus side, your alive to complain about it...

[CJB]

Just ask Jesse or Al, but cops muscle memory is best when the target is darker, not lighter.....

Yah right.

You see cops MISS in armed altercations all the time. WTF? Thirty eight shots fired, by two officers, at the armed and shooting perp, and two shots hit the target.

Human reaction to nerves. Dynamic target training probably helps. But even that is too unrealistic.

How can you train an officer to keep his nerve, when even battle weary troops lose their nerve?

Wasn't it John Wayne in The Shootist....

Gillom Rogers (Ron Howard): Bat Masterson told Cobb...

John Bernard Books John Wayne): [Interrupts] Bat Masterson?

Gillom Rogers: Yeah, he said that a man has to have guts, deliberation and a proficiency with fire arms.
John Bernard Books: Did he mention that third eye you better have?
Gillom Rogers: Third eye?
John Bernard Books: For that ******* amateur. There's always some six-fingered bustard that couldn't hit a cow in the tit with a tin cup. That's the one who usually does you in. But Masterson always was full of... sheep-dip.

[AJBert]

In my very humble opinion, to many folks "practice" using their sights. When the SHTF, sights are pretty much useless. Folks tend to point and shoot hoping something lands. Very few ever practice point shooting.

As a side note, this is something I learned at young age with a shotgun. Point shooting training continued on in the military. I have to say I really impressed myself when point shooting with a firearm an the meanest sandbag from various positions, whether it was a rifle, shotgun or pistol.

[340pd]

In my very humble opinion, to many folks "practice" using their sights. When the SHTF, sights are pretty much useless. Folks tend to point and shoot hoping something lands. Very few ever practice point shooting.

As a side note, this is something I learned at young age with a shotgun. Point shooting training continued on in the military. I have to say I really impressed myself when point shooting with a firearm an the meanest sandbag from various positions, whether it was a rifle, shotgun or pistol.

^^^Exactly^^^
Learn to focus on the threat and operate the trigger smoothly. Think trap shooting.

[Armybrat]

My nephew's small police department was involved in a fatal shooting last week.

Fortunately for my nephew, who is usually on the night shift, he was off duty that night. The Kerrville PD has a total of 36 street cops.

The entire night shift of four officers responded to the call and set up outside the man's house after the wife fled with their child. The perp came out on the porch but it was so dark they could barely see him. I don't know what the distance was. When the man fired a shot in the direction of the officers, all four fired back at his muzzle flash. They shot a total of 12 rounds at him - all 4 officers were using their issue AR-15 carbines, but only one bullet hit the mark.
They saw him fall and immediately went to his aid with their medical kit. After being transported to the local hospital then to nearby San Antonio, the man died. Pretty sad ending to a family disturbance call.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...le-6448471.php

Of course the 4 man night shift is on administrative leave for several weeks while the Texas Rangers investigate the shooting. Being such a small PD, the chief has a tough job rescheduling everybody on all the shifts. Nephew ain't gettin' any time off for a while until the investigation is complete.

12 rounds fired, 1 hit - but as noted it was very dark.

Kerrville has a population of about 22,000 people (a lot of them military retirees), so incidents like this are a very big deal.

[happypuppy]

A lot of good points.

Point shooting works. Learn it if you don't.

The last case with the AR; I have changed my way of thinking a bit. I was using a 130 lumen weapons light. I am planning on going to a much brighter one. I wonder if that's part of the problem with this shooting. Can't hit it if you can't see it. Anyway I am realistic that as I am not a kid anymore my night vision due to the loss of cones with aging is about half what it was at 20. So lights are a good thing.

[muggsy]

Shooting tight groups at the range using the sights demonstrates how well the individual shoots his gun. Things change on the street in the dark when the target is shooting back. When I point shoot I measure my groups in minutes of torso.

[berettabone]

Budget smudgit..................If I were a cop, I would practice as much as I could on my own, with my money if necessary. If they have a range available to them, they ought to use it. Do they want to go home at night?????????????????