Cruz sides with Law Enforcement on Oregon Standoff

[Longitude Zero]

LZ how can you tell from that crappy video from a helicopter whether the shooting was justified? There was no sound, you can't tell what was said, and how Finicum reacted to any orders that were given to him. Other forensic experts have said there wasn't enough there to really make a decision one way or another, but they weren't law enforcement, and looking through law enforcement eyes.
Witnesses says his hands were in the air, and they shot him in the face, but he did say if you need to shoot someone shoot me, and not the women.
I bet if they were black that they would have gotten most the things they asked for. Of course you are going to side with law enforcement since you are one of them.

Actually if you pay attention that video was actually quite good. You can clearly see his hands down around fiddling at his waist has he goes down. He spouted off several times about how he was always armed and would not go down without a fight. Nobody has yet seen the autopsy report so precisely where the bullets entered his body is pure conjecture at this point. Witnesses on the Bundy side are known and proven liars and not really believable. EVERYTHING the Bundies is involved in is a red herring to knowledgeable observers. As to siding with LEO's I have condemned their actions when I believed they were wrong. I am no backer of the BLM or the FBI but in this case justice was properly served. Your Tin Hatter aka Chicken Little schtick is wearing a bit thin on facts/reality/accuracy. Just like the little boy crying wolf.

[muggsy]

He emerged with his hands up and then went for his waist band where he had a gun concealed. That was the wrong thing to do. He paid for it with his life. Things in life don't always go the way that you want. Cooler heads prevail. Hot heads do not. We are a nation of laws not a nation of men. If you don't like the law you work to change the law. You don't take the law into your own hands. I guess that's why I'm a Cruz supporter and you support Trump, Tman. I don't allow anger to cloud my vision or determine my actions.

[TheTman]

As far as his arms dropping, the snow was deep and difficult to get through with your hands above your head, he may have dropped his arms to keep his balance. Without sound, we have no idea at what point he was shot, so he may have been reacting to being shot by grabbing the area he was shot in, and fiddling with his waist. I would also like to see a coroners report, after hearing that he was shot at least 3 times while he was lying on the ground. I'd like to see an INDEPENDENT coroners report, not one that has been doctored by the FBI. I bet the coroners report is going to back up the FBI narrative 100%. That is why I want to see and independent report. I still think it's difficult to get a proper analysis with no sound, since we can't tell when he was shot we don't see ALL the shooters, there were snipers hidden in the woods that aren't on camera that may have taken a shot. I think we've all said things, that we may not actually follow through on depending on circumstances. Muggsy, if Cruz had said the shooting was unjustified, would you be agreeing with him? It appears the Cruz can do no wrong in the book of Muggsy.

From and Independent forensic analysis, from someone that is not in law enforcement.
"After careful examination of the video footage of the shooting of LaVoy Finicum we found that the movements of Mr. Finicum's body, his arms and hands are consistent with the reaction when one is shot. He exits his vehicle with both hands/arms in the air and keeps them in that position for awhile, then we see a quick drop and his right hand goes to his lower left side, his hip or abdomen area, as if grabbing where a bullet struck. His body also is turning from right to left and we see his knees buckle and one point and his right leg moves back, he then places his right hand in the middle of his torso, another very possible reaction to a gunshot wound. Why would a man who exits his vehicle obeying the commands of the State Troopers/Feds, with both of them at close range and their weapons pointed directly at him, then decide to reach for a weapon?
Then Mr. Finicum drops his hands and then raises them and then drops then again and raises them. Mr. Finicum was having great difficulty keeping his balance in the deep snow. That could also explain why his arms droped, to keep himself from falling over. Receiving gunshot wounds will also affect ones arms when they are raised up and cause them to drop down.
The natural instinctive reaction is to grab the area where one has been shot.
Very important to NOTE, that as soon as Mr. Finicum had exited the vehicle, with his arms in the air, the Troopers/Feds to the right and the one to the left, quickly move in, in a combat tactical approach to takeout a target.
Clearly the Troopers/Feds were not attempting to get Mr. Finicum to comply, the Troopers/Feds were moving at a very rapid pace, closing in to neutralize him, aka kill him. This all took place in the span of 6 seconds.
At no time did Mr. Finicum produce a weapon and according to applicable law, the use of deadly force is justified only when there is a genuine threat of death or serious bodily injury. No such threat was present when the State Troopers/Feds shot Mr. Finicum, multiple times.
There is something very wrong here and a full impartial investigation needs to be conducted to determine what took place. All other video, Bodycam and Dashcam w/audio needs to be reviewed and an impartial examination of Mr. Finicum's body needs to be done, to establish how many times he was shot and the exact location of those gunshot wounds. ‪#‎JusticeforLaVoy‬

[TheTman]

You guys do know that you already have won your case in the court of public opinion. Probably at least 75-80% of the population has swallowed the pablum that MSM news has fed them about the Bundy's being heinous outlaws, that should have been taken out Waco style. Thank God that there are still some of us that don't lap up the MSM stories they try to feed us.
Much of which is centered on gun-control, planned-parenthood being an innocent provider of women's health services, and Hillary being the victim of a vast right wing conspiracy, and innocent of all the accusations that are leveled at her. Along with much kissing of Obama's rear end, and supporting almost everything he spouts out, and other libtard issues.

[downtownv]

Another layer of tinfoil please!

Uhhh, does that mean you believe AND support EVERYTHING the Government does?

[muggsy]

I can see that this post is going nowhere, but down hill. I'm done here.

[Arkansas Bob]

A big NO on that. However it is not the other way either. If everything is a conspiracy that is just as unlikely. Bob

[TheTman]

Anyone wonder, why looters can burn property, take shots towards police, (From a long ways away with little chance of hitting any), loot the hell out of all the stores in the neighborhood, beat people up, and MSM says it's a non-violent protest, and people just lap up the pablum. Shots had been fired, people were beaten, Police cars overturned, but according to MSM it's no big deal. (in Ferguson shots were fired, not sure about Baltimore)
Meanwhile, you have a peaceful protest, with no property damaged, no shots fired, no rioting and looting, no police cars burned, and MSM turns it into a Dangerous Violent Assault, by Heavily Armed Outlaws, and again America laps up the pablum and assumes the worst about the Ranchers in Oregon? They have people in the local town scared to leave their homes. What kind of foolishness is that?

Usually there is a trail of money that can be followed to determine why things happen as they do, in the case of the looting and rioting, I suppose the longer they continued, the more people tuned in to watch the news. In the rancher case, I have no idea how it influenced news coverage, I suppose it increased viewership some, but I also wonder how much the BLM profited from taking over the ranchers land, then leasing it out to Russian owned Canadian One mining.​ Several tactics were used to force the ranchers off their land, including flooding their land, so it would be worthless, then buying it for pennies on the dollar, then opening the dams so the water would drain from the ranch land. One rancher tells a story of finding a bunker like facility on his ranch that looked to be deserted, but when he got out of his truck to investigate, BLM SUV's swarmed in, and told him he no longer owned this piece of property. No court action or anything just confiscating the land. How are these things legal? Maybe the Hammonds didn't want their help, but what about all the other ranchers being screwed over in the area? No one has bothered to get their reactions. When is the proper time to take action against tyrannical activities by Govt. agencies? Or do we act like sheep and let them do as they want? I don't believe that is what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the Constitution, and the 2nd Amendment, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.
The death of Lavoy Finicum has a lot of people outraged. It might have been intended to scare people, but it doesn't seem to be having that effect, if anything it seems to be making people angrier and bolder, and less likely to take govt. BS.

The Oregon Governor, a Democrat, recently was raising hell about the ranchers protest, and wanted them dealt with. That may have been the driving force behind the ambush.
All I can say is God must have protected the ranchers, because they drove into an ambush, (They were headed to a meeting with the Sheriff of the adjoining county) where hundreds of rounds were fired into the truck, and there was only one casualty, and that's probably because he left the vehicle. You'd think the truck might have caught fire from a punctured gas tank or something, but it didn't.

And then, what kind of man walks up to a guy motionless on the ground, probably dead, and pumps several more shots into him, just to make sure. I imagine their intentions was that no one in the vehicle made it out alive, that's why I think they must have had divine protection to have lived through that. There were snipers planted all through the woods. Shots coming from every direction, and only one person died, and another one wounded. God knows who was in the right in this situation, and it was not the BLM, who have been abusing ranchers and Native Americans for years. Nor was it the FBI who tried their best to terminate everyone, but only succeeded with one. The narratives of the two women in the vehicle match closely, but differs greatly from the "official" narrative. People will say well they coordinated their stories, but they were split up, and never had the chance to talk to each other. And with all the bullets flying into the vehicle, I doubt if they were talking about their narratives of the situation matching during that time. I guess a lot comes down to if you want to side with an over reaching federal agency, that has been abusing it's power for years, or believe some god fearing ranchers and their supporters that were trying to set things right. Ammon Bundy also claims that he was operating under divine inspiration.

There is a Mark McConnell, that is also telling a narrative on the issue, but his story differs from all the other eye-witnesses and he is believed to have been one of the embedded agents in the Bundy camp. He also urged everyone into two vehicles, when people wanted to take several more. I think he knew what was about to happen. So I wouldn't put much stock in what he says.
if you go to: www.freecapitalist.com you can listen to one of the eye-witnesses tell her story. The link to her story is real easy to find.


Bye Muggs, I hope there are no hard feelings. Just because we don't agree on many things, doesn't mean anything more than we don't agree, well not to me anyway. Everyone has heard MSM's side of this story. I'm just trying to present the other side from the ranchers point of view. I guess I feel for them, because my Dad got screwed over on some land because of Eminent Domain. He had to let them run a high power line through the back 40 of our 80 acres, and they give them the right to access it at anytime. They low-balled him on the price they paid for the land to put the poles in, and the damage they caused tracking up the field with their equipment. Then they could come for service or repair anytime, even right before a wheat harvest and destroy a boatload of wheat if they needed too, and reimburse him maybe half of what the wheat might have brought if it was harvested. Luckily that didn't happen often. Most of the time they would wait until after harvest, or when it young enough that you could drive over it and not do it much damage, as long as it wasn't muddy. But it screwed us out of being able to develop it for housing or anything, as you couldn't build any structure within a few hundred yards of the line. But they did run through there and inspect it once a year at least for several years, then it tapered off, to less often.