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Thread: Non stainless finish durability?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
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    5

    Default Non stainless finish durability?

    Not a big fan of stainless finishes. What process does Kahr use to coat their slides?
    Thanks
    Steve

  2. #2
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    Aug 2017
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    KY
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    most of their guns use stainless slides but they offer various models with coatings.

    They have some with black, burnt bronze, tungsten, gold, or patriot brown Cerkaote.

    on the premium models they have some a black slide with some special coating on it, not sure what it is.
    Kahr MK9
    Kahr CW9
    Kel-Tec P-3AT
    Glock 17 gen 4
    Makarov PM
    Sarsilmaz B6PC

    "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."

  3. #3
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    Aug 2016
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    The black finish on the premium series Kahrs is the DLC finish. MUCH more durable than cerakote, which is basically a baked on , ceramic based paint.

    If you don't like the plain stainless finish, it's the one to get - as long as you like a black finish.

    This was taken from a post on the Pistolsmith forum, if it helps...

    "The mechanical and tribological properties of DLC films (friction coefficient around 0.1 in air, hardness up to about 80 GPa, and elastic modulus approaching 600 GPa) are very close to those of diamond. Moreover, these films are chemically inert in most aggressive environments, and may be deposited with densities approaching that of diamond. However, differently to CVD diamond, DLC films are routinely produced at room temperature, which makes them particularly attractive for applications where the substrate cannot experience elevated temperatures.

    DLC simply means Diamond Like Carbon (coatings). It is harder than Ti coatings and MUCH hard than chrome or chromium nitrides.

    DLC thin-film is produced in the high-vacumn environment inside the a machine's chamber by a physical vapor deposition (PVD) process. During the PVD process, benzene is disassociated and ionized by a DC arc discharge (plasma). The resulting ions migrate towards the blade to be coated which is negatively biased relative to the plasma. Collisions between ions in the gas phase result in the formation of both SP2 and SP3 bonded carbon structures which are then deposited on the substrate surface. As this is a PVD process, no chemistry takes place on the substrate surface and, thus, the substrate temperature can be less than 200 degrees Celcius.

    DLC thin-film has an amorphous structure which is lacking in crystal grains. DLC has a much smoother surface than TiN. DLC has an average roughness of 7 angstroms whereas a typical TiN film has an average roughness of 110 angstroms. This exceptional smoothness, along with hardness, results in DLC's superior tribological properties as well as other properties such as wear-resistance, chemical inertness, build-up resistance, and low friction coefficient."

  4. #4
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    Aug 2017
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    KY
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    Wow. Thanks Ed. Didnt know I was going to get a science lesson
    Kahr MK9
    Kahr CW9
    Kel-Tec P-3AT
    Glock 17 gen 4
    Makarov PM
    Sarsilmaz B6PC

    "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
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    5

    Default Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed M View Post
    The black finish on the premium series Kahrs is the DLC finish. MUCH more durable than cerakote, which is basically a baked on , ceramic based paint.

    If you don't like the plain stainless finish, it's the one to get - as long as you like a black finish.

    This was taken from a post on the Pistolsmith forum, if it helps...

    "The mechanical and tribological properties of DLC films (friction coefficient around 0.1 in air, hardness up to about 80 GPa, and elastic modulus approaching 600 GPa) are very close to those of diamond. Moreover, these films are chemically inert in most aggressive environments, and may be deposited with densities approaching that of diamond. However, differently to CVD diamond, DLC films are routinely produced at room temperature, which makes them particularly attractive for applications where the substrate cannot experience elevated temperatures.

    DLC simply means Diamond Like Carbon (coatings). It is harder than Ti coatings and MUCH hard than chrome or chromium nitrides.

    DLC thin-film is produced in the high-vacumn environment inside the a machine's chamber by a physical vapor deposition (PVD) process. During the PVD process, benzene is disassociated and ionized by a DC arc discharge (plasma). The resulting ions migrate towards the blade to be coated which is negatively biased relative to the plasma. Collisions between ions in the gas phase result in the formation of both SP2 and SP3 bonded carbon structures which are then deposited on the substrate surface. As this is a PVD process, no chemistry takes place on the substrate surface and, thus, the substrate temperature can be less than 200 degrees Celcius.

    DLC thin-film has an amorphous structure which is lacking in crystal grains. DLC has a much smoother surface than TiN. DLC has an average roughness of 7 angstroms whereas a typical TiN film has an average roughness of 110 angstroms. This exceptional smoothness, along with hardness, results in DLC's superior tribological properties as well as other properties such as wear-resistance, chemical inertness, build-up resistance, and low friction coefficient."
    Great reply
    Thanks
    Steve

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    130

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed M View Post
    The black finish on the premium series Kahrs is the DLC finish. MUCH more durable than cerakote, which is basically a baked on , ceramic based paint.

    If you don't like the plain stainless finish, it's the one to get - as long as you like a black finish.

    This was taken from a post on the Pistolsmith forum, if it helps...

    "The mechanical and tribological properties of DLC films (friction coefficient around 0.1 in air, hardness up to about 80 GPa, and elastic modulus approaching 600 GPa) are very close to those of diamond. Moreover, these films are chemically inert in most aggressive environments, and may be deposited with densities approaching that of diamond. However, differently to CVD diamond, DLC films are routinely produced at room temperature, which makes them particularly attractive for applications where the substrate cannot experience elevated temperatures.

    DLC simply means Diamond Like Carbon (coatings). It is harder than Ti coatings and MUCH hard than chrome or chromium nitrides.

    DLC thin-film is produced in the high-vacumn environment inside the a machine's chamber by a physical vapor deposition (PVD) process. During the PVD process, benzene is disassociated and ionized by a DC arc discharge (plasma). The resulting ions migrate towards the blade to be coated which is negatively biased relative to the plasma. Collisions between ions in the gas phase result in the formation of both SP2 and SP3 bonded carbon structures which are then deposited on the substrate surface. As this is a PVD process, no chemistry takes place on the substrate surface and, thus, the substrate temperature can be less than 200 degrees Celcius.

    DLC thin-film has an amorphous structure which is lacking in crystal grains. DLC has a much smoother surface than TiN. DLC has an average roughness of 7 angstroms whereas a typical TiN film has an average roughness of 110 angstroms. This exceptional smoothness, along with hardness, results in DLC's superior tribological properties as well as other properties such as wear-resistance, chemical inertness, build-up resistance, and low friction coefficient."
    Wow. I had no idea!

    I picked up a Cw380 in tungsten cerakote. I like it and it's more durable than I thought it would be. There was some mechanical wear in the first few Hun dred rounds, but now at 800 rounds and 5 months of edc show no wear.

  7. #7
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    Aug 2017
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    Default

    Wow. I like stainless but now thanks to Ed I want DLC.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
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    Take the info I provided with a grain of salt.

    Lots of folks are perfectly happy with a cerakote finish. I have a few guns with it, and none of them have the durability that my PM9 with the DLC finish has shown over 8 years of EDC and over 5000 rounds through it.

    Carry guns get unavoidable abuse to the finish that safe queens or even range guns avoid easier. Just holstering and unholstering causes wear and tear on the finish, no matter how careful one is. Some holsters are much worse than others in this regard. My PM9 has spent the majority of it's EDC life in a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster. That particular holster is very gentle on the gun's finish, and protects it very well. IWB and OWB carry is a different story, and is one of the major reasons I went with a CM9 in natural stainless for my primary EDC.

    My preference BY FAR is the satin stainless finish found on the majority of Kahrs. So easy to keep them looking new. Some folks don't mind a bit of wear on the finish of their EDC weapons, and just consider it a part of the game...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    North Central Washington
    Posts
    2,384

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    I have a PM9 with the black DLC finish. When I purchased it (used) it came with 2 kydex holsters. They had probably been used a bit. It does have finish wear on the corners on the front half of the slide. It does seem like a really tough finish. I don't know what that PM9 had been through before I got it. I carry much like Ed M, so I haven't seen any wear during my tenure with it.
    Aftermarket accessories for Kahr Pistols at https://lakelinellc.com/
    There are always more in the pipeline...

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