.40 S&W dead - yes or no

[ltxi]

^ Well understand this. Grew up combat trained and tested with 1911's so them work quite well for me. The only SA semi-autos I own/use other than 1911's or a derivative design are Glocks...yes, I know but I view and treat them as such....and I swipe off their non-existent thumb safety without conscious thought. I don't do DA/SA autos and my only DAO autos are Kahrs...which I mentally action classify with my defensive Smith K and J frame revolvers.

This is not, in practice, as convoluted as it may sound.

[boscobarbell]

It's all about training, reflexes, experience and muscle memory, sire. If there's one thing I learned during my law enforcement career, it's that bad things can happen unexpectedly, and very, very quickly. After 30+ years of intense training with Glocks, I simply would not trust myself to be able to react to a sudden threat quickly with a 1911. I know, as surely as I'm sitting here, that I would attempt to pull the trigger, then suddenly remember that I had to disengage the safety. All that could conceivably consume enough time for the bad guy to get the drop on me...no thanks.

From what I know, the 1911 is a wonderful platform; however, for some of us it's just not viable for self-defense. This is especially true for those of us who are current or former law enforcement, with little or no 1911 experience, who are perhaps a little more concerned with quick reaction to a threat than the average person.

Well stated.

[kenemoore]

I agree it's all about the training, and the muscle memory. I have more time on 1911's than I can remember. I find my thumb hunting the safety when I shoot anything else. I try to attend at least one training session per year, often times the youngsters are amazed that I carry a 1911 in condition 1. They think it is so....unsafe.
But.. they are not for everyone. I grew up on revolvers, and encountered my first 1911 in the military. Really learned how to shoot it from an old gunny sergeant at a reserve center in the early 80's. Earlier this year I bought a CZ PCR as my new EDC, but gave it up and went back to my CCO. Just didn't feel right. Like others have mentioned, my thumb rides the safety, so it's second nature to unsafe it when needed.

I attended a training class a couple of years ago and it was for "experienced" shooters. There was a lady in my class with some model HK (I don't know much about HK's) which had a manual safety, and she would forget it 7 out of 10 times. She did it so many times it was not funny. I don't know if she borrowed the pistol or what, she was introduced as a "trainer" specializing in helping women learn to shoot. But it was obvious she had little training time on the HK or the high stress was getting to her, but a perfect example of what you non-safety guys are preaching. It would take her 1-2 seconds to recognize that the pistol did not go boom, and another second or two to remember the safety was still on.

Each to his own, that's why pistols come in so many flavors. Training is the key.

[gale155]

I agree it's all about the training, and the muscle memory. I have more time on 1911's than I can remember. I find my thumb hunting the safety when I shoot anything else. I try to attend at least one training session per year, often times the youngsters are amazed that I carry a 1911 in condition 1. They think it is so....unsafe.
But.. they are not for everyone. I grew up on revolvers, and encountered my first 1911 in the military. Really learned how to shoot it from an old gunny sergeant at a reserve center in the early 80's. Earlier this year I bought a CZ PCR as my new EDC, but gave it up and went back to my CCO. Just didn't feel right. Like others have mentioned, my thumb rides the safety, so it's second nature to unsafe it when needed.

I attended a training class a couple of years ago and it was for "experienced" shooters. There was a lady in my class with some model HK (I don't know much about HK's) which had a manual safety, and she would forget it 7 out of 10 times. She did it so many times it was not funny. I don't know if she borrowed the pistol or what, she was introduced as a "trainer" specializing in helping women learn to shoot. But it was obvious she had little training time on the HK or the high stress was getting to her, but a perfect example of what you non-safety guys are preaching. It would take her 1-2 seconds to recognize that the pistol did not go boom, and another second or two to remember the safety was still on.

Each to his own, that's why pistols come in so many flavors. Training is the key.

This reminds me of something that is probably still relevant regarding external safeties on personal defense pistols, and why they might be a good thing.

When civilian cops began transitioning from revolvers to semi-autos back in the early-80's, most (I believe) were SA/DA...in my case it was a Smith Model 659. In that the DA pull was heavy enough to make accidental discharges unlikely, the question many of us had was whether we should carry it with the safety on or off. My department chose not to address this in policy form, and left it up to the individual officers.

At about this time, some organization did a very comprehensive study on this very subject, given that many times officers are shot with their own weapons taken away by the bad guy(s). The purpose was to determine how long it would take for someone to be able to fire a suddenly-acquired DA/SA pistol on which the safety was engaged. A large number of people were involved (I don't recall, but think it was hundreds), and their experience with firearms ranged from lots to none. While I don't remember many of the specifics of this research study, I do recall the average length of time it took to "fire" the gun...16 seconds! For most of us cops, that meant we'd have time to pull a backup gun or knife, run away or wrestle our gun back. As a result, most of the cops I knew and worked with started carrying with the safety on.

When the department announced that we were going to Glocks, there were two primary objections by the rank-and-file. First, of course, was the plastic gun thing. Second was the lack of any external safety...all the bad guy had to do was pull the trigger, we argued. The rest, of course, is history.

What does this mean for the average civilian who carries for self-defense today, if anything? Personally, I think the chances of a civilian who carries concealed being disarmed is less than that for cops, primarily because we're not usually going to be engaged activities that invite that sort of thing. Now civilians who decide to open carry, which I think is a very bad idea, are a totally different matter.

[Bawanna]

We went through the same thing with Beretta's. Safety on, safety off? We determined it was wisest to leave the safety on and keep that muscle memory and remember to switch it off.
We then transitioned to Beretta's 40's with decock only so it became a moot point.
Most agencies around here where they allowed officers to carry their choice within certain criteria went to 1911's.

For awhile they were never allowed because the hammer back was to concerning to citizens. I guess they got over that and now we see a lot more of them again.

Our detectives can carry their choice but now they all seem to carry the issued Glock 30's. For awhile a couple were carrying 1911's. One got bit by the 9mm bug (everybody's doing it) and carries a 17 with one of the heads up display sights, his eyes apparently not seeing sights so good.

[gb6491]

True Old Dogs grew up on them 1911's, and DA revolvers. Methinks you must be a Middle Aged Dog.

Old Dog here, I swipe the safety off everything...whether it has one or not

As to the short .40, from the spent brass I see at the outdoor public range, it's still kicking.
I know the Border Patrol down here uses it.

On the other hand, the city PD uses 9mm in their M&Ps.

Our Deputy Sheriffs carry 1911's in .45ACP.

Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

I ran into one deputy at the fair last year and he had 8 magazines for his 1911 on his belt. Guess he didn't want to run short and I don't blame him. It was a nice set up.

[gb6491]

I ran into one deputy at the fair last year and he had 8 magazines for his 1911 on his belt. Guess he didn't want to run short and I don't blame him. It was a nice set up.

I think this Arizona Ranger was of the same mindset (the Deputy on the left, not so much):

Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

Them is the days I should have been wandering the planet. Them ponies look plumb hot and not much interested in the photo shoot.

[gale155]

Them is the days I should have been wandering the planet. Them ponies look plumb hot and not much interested in the photo shoot.

They sure do, poor things. The photo also demonstrates the absolute absurdity of liberal state governments that limit magazine capacity to 10-rounds. If someone were interested in shooting a bunch of people, how many 10-round mags could they conceal under their clothing? I'm a fairly skinny guy, but I could get 20 to 25 10-round mags on my belt alone...and many more in various pockets, if I were so inclined.