New Sights

[gb6491]

I have a buddy that bought a P365 with the SAS sight. He sold it after one range trip as he didn't like the sights in dim light. Still, I'd like to shoot one to see for myself. I do really like my 365 with the Xray3 sights.

I picked up a Hellcat, but I am not as enamored by it. With the flat base plate on the 11 round magazine, i find it more difficult to shoot as accurately as either my PM9 or P365. With the 13 round mag, it handles much better for me, but then it's a larger footprint. I also felt the need to smooth out some sharp edges on it's frame and trigger.
I'm not saying it's a bad gun, as it runs fine and I can shoot it accurately, I just find it takes more work for me to do so. I'm talking pin point accuracy here, it's fine for torso size targets at 10 yds. with little effort. A better trigger would probably bring it online with the other guns I mentioned.

Regards,
Greg

I'd like to update this a bit. I went ahead and sprung for a Powder River Precision Hellcat trigger kit. The kit is a touch over $100, but it was 15% off on Black Friday. I'm glad I spent the money
I just finished the install and while I don't have a trigger pull gauge it's easy to tell the Hellcat's trigger is smoother and lighter. I'll put some rounds through it tomorrow, but just now, doing side by side dry firing, I'd say that my P365 no longer has a trigger advantage over my Hellcat. It might even be half a step behind.

Regards,
Greg

[340pd]

I'd like to update this a bit. I went ahead and sprung for a Powder River Precision Hellcat trigger kit. The kit is a touch over $100, but it was 15% off on Black Friday. I'm glad I spent the money
I just finished the install and while I don't have a trigger pull gauge it's easy to tell the Hellcat's trigger is smoother and lighter. I'll put some rounds through it tomorrow, but just now, doing side by side dry firing, I'd say that my P365 no longer has a trigger advantage over my Hellcat. It might even be half a step behind.

Regards,
Greg

Nice addition Greg. Your picture with those three guns is exactly why I keep my PM9. It is quite a bit smaller and much more concealable than the other two.
Tell me about the two different trigger positions in your before and after Hellcat picture. Did the PR kit position your trigger that much more rearward?
I put a PR kit in my full size XDm and it made a huge difference as did the Apex kit I put in a Shield I once owned. It always amazes me that the manufacturers can't figure this stuff out while they are designing their new offerings. It is not a weight or safety issue, just over smoothness with a clean trigger break.
As for the U rear sight on the Hellcat, I has a version of that from rear Meprolight with a bright yellow dot front on that same Shield I owned. I found it very easy to line up.
Loved that Shield but sold it to a co-worker as soon as I fired and bought my first P365.

[gb6491]

Nice addition Greg. Your picture with those three guns is exactly why I keep my PM9. It is quite a bit smaller and much more concealable than the other two.
Tell me about the two different trigger positions in your before and after Hellcat picture. Did the PR kit position your trigger that much more rearward?
I put a PR kit in my full size XDm and it made a huge difference as did the Apex kit I put in a Shield I once owned. It always amazes me that the manufacturers can't figure this stuff out while they are designing their new offerings. It is not a weight or safety issue, just over smoothness with a clean trigger break.
As for the U rear sight on the Hellcat, I has a version of that from rear Meprolight with a bright yellow dot front on that same Shield I owned. I found it very easy to line up.
Loved that Shield but sold it to a co-worker as soon as I fired and bought my first P365.

Hey, thanks for the comments! Sorry for the confusing photos, the trigger position in the photo with the parts is a result of the striker having been released and not reset.
Regards,
Greg

[340pd]

Thanks. Give us your opinions after shooting both Sig and Hellcat. My P365 is set up exactly like yours and I train a lot both strong and weak hand while the target is coming at me from 75' out and the flat trigger really helps me with trigger control. The Hellcat looks to have the same shape. I have no dog in this fight as I will not replace or add to my small hi-capacity carry guns, but I value your opinion and may make use of it when asked by my students and range customers.

[berettabone]

Something to ponder????????

[Bawanna]

That's a standard versus a Target. You can find those around 1000 bucks. I've pondered one pretty hard but I found one place that has the Target for 1230 as I recall, just waiting on few things to fall into place and I'll order one.
I'm sure the standard is a hell of a gun, I just like the grips and better sights on the target model.

[gb6491]

Thanks. Give us your opinions after shooting both Sig and Hellcat. My P365 is set up exactly like yours and I train a lot both strong and weak hand while the target is coming at me from 75' out and the flat trigger really helps me with trigger control. The Hellcat looks to have the same shape. I have no dog in this fight as I will not replace or add to my small hi-capacity carry guns, but I value your opinion and may make use of it when asked by my students and range customers.

Triggers.
I liked the 365's trigger right out of the box, but it did have a hint of grittiness, b. A little polishing done while installing the flat face trigger cleared that up. I really like the flat face trigger, but it's not a necessity.

The Hellcat has kind of grown on me. Out of the box, I felt it's trigger was a hindrance to good accuracy. I'd describe it as Glock like: heavy take up, stout wall, sharpish break with over travel. If all you demand of the Hellcat is the ability to put your rounds into the chest of a full size silhouette at 10 yards, then the trigger is up to that task. However, I want to be able to consistently hit a softball to baseball size target at that distance. It's possible to hit that size target with the Hellcat at 10 yards, but it takes much more effort to do so with the stock Hellcat trigger as compared to the P365. Powder River Precision has a trigger kit ($105) that fixes that. I consider it a necessity (definitely the reason the Hellcat has grown on me).

Grip.
The Hellcat's grip is slightly larger and has excellent texture; a "fuller grip" comes to mind.

The 365's grip is smaller. That's not to say it's bad, it's just different. One can also buy wraps/sleeves to make the grip larger. I'm guessing SIG could possibly offer different size grip modules at some point.

Out of the box, I like the Hellcat grip better. EDIT: installing a Wilson Combat grip module on the P365 puts it ahead of the Hellcat in regards to which I like better.


Sights.
For me, the P365's sights are regulated to hit what you cover with the front sight at ten yards. The sights on my 365 are defective in that the tritium is very dim and the green ring around the tritium of the front sight is only discernible in certain, limited lighting conditions. SIG is sending me a new set of sights under warranty.

The SIG's sights might be better for precision shooting (talking older eyes here, the SIG sight's have generous space to the sides of the front sight), but the Hellcat's sights work well for me when shooting rapidly. I can also use them to get good hit's without my glasses where as I'd be shooting the SIG instinctively. FWIW, the Hellcat's sights seem regulated for POA/POI right over the front sight.

So at this point, I find I prefer the Hellcat sights.

Shooting.
Beyond what I mentioned above, I think the Hellcat (with PRP trigger kit) and P365 handle and shoot with similar characteristics.
Manual of arms is the same. Recoil management feels about equal. Hit probability is on par with each other (as is ease of doing it).

Bottom line for me:
Both or well made, capable guns. I'm happy with both (outside of having to shell out for a trigger kit and replacing sights).

If I were recommending one over the other, I'd say go with the P365.
It's a bit more refined. It's trigger is better out of the box.
You can buy replacement parts on line (or upgrades like the flat face trigger). Replacement grip modules are available now. You can buy after market modules that are larger, perhaps SIG will consider doing so in the future.
The 365 is available in a wider variety of models and sighting options (just saw the version with a bare stainless finish on the slide that looked quite nice).


Anyway, That's my $.02 worth (though there might be other things I haven't recalled here).


Did I mention the the Hellcat has really started to grow on me.
Regards,
Greg

[JohnR]

I have anew Mark II eyeball (cataract surgery, new lens) so I’m looking forward to seeing how it affects my use of sights. I couldn’t use the iron sights of a rifle at all, and handgun sights were challenging. My new lens is for near focus, so I expect good things.

[\threadhijack]

[Ed M]

I didn't want a P365. I like my CM9 a lot, and it is still my first choice of EDC just because it's usually more comfortable to carry.

But the first time I held a P365, I knew I had to have one.

One of the things I liked most about the CM9 is it does everything well. Pocket carry, IWB, OWB - it does it all, and does it well.

The P365 is just about as versatile, but with a kicker. It can pocket carry almost as well, but a little heavier than the CM9 (and it DOES make a difference).

IWB and OWB, it's a draw (no pun intended).

Here's the kicker - the P365 has a 15rd extended magazine available! The stock Sig 15 rd mag has a pretty hideous base plate, but a company called Tactical Development makes 2 versions - one with a finger groove, and one without. The base plates make the 15 round mags more ergonomic AND more aesthetically pleasing.

For me, ergonomics are the name of the game. I want my mods to be both good looking, and improve comfort.

I found a company that does this for me, and the install is simple with the P365's modularity.

I installed Armory Craft's machined bar stock trigger. No MIM part here, and it is skeletonized for looks. The front of the trigger has micro serrations which help keep your trigger finger where you put it No slippage. I like to put my trigger finger at the base of the trigger to help reduce perceived pull weight. I also like the at rest position of the AC trigger. The Sig flat trigger sits too far forward for me, and the AC trigger is much better for rapid shooting.

The Sig modular design meant that I could just swap out grip modules for a custom look. I chose an Armory Craft laser etched grip module in Sniper Gray cerakote. Installation takes about 30 seconds - one pin out, swap grip modules, put pin back in.
The new grip texturing really feels great in the hand, yet doesn't irritate surrounding skin areas when holstered.

As I see it, even though the Hellcat looks promising, the modularity of the Sig design gives it the edge for "customization"

ACp3652.jpg



P365 15rd.jpg

[340pd]

Thanks Greg and Ed. Without ever shooting the Hellcat I imagined what you would say about both guns. Interesting we have offerings from major manufacturers that always require some trigger work.oddly, my PM9 is the only handgun I own that has never been touched.
That said, working with my PM9 today I had forgot about that really long that trigger stroke. Anything that can be done to shorten it up a bit?