CT380 vs P9 or S9 recoil?

[King Rat]

I have been shooting the 380's on a regular basis for over 12 yrs now. Seen just about every test that has been done. I shoot PrecisionOne 380 plus P and have no worries at all. Really do not pay attention to caliber wars much anymore. The internet is soak with blood over them. Carry what you want. That is one thing that is Great about this Country. Freedom of Choice. The rest are just opinions.

[I_Like_Turtles]

Put some Xtreme Defense or even Xtreme Penetrator in that 380 if you’re worried about penetration. Winter clothes will be irrelevant. Hollow points are not the best choice available for a 380.

Are those loads by Lehigh Defense (ammo)? If so.....penetration (and damage too) won't be much of a problem! LOL

I considered buying some of that to test in my weapons but I'm kinda afraid of over penetration.

https://www.lehighdefense.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLbmSp5itA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErofxN3F52s

[DavidR]

Lehigh bullets. Lehigh, Underwood and Black Hills sell complete cartridges.

[berettabone]

My wife carries a Sig P238, and also owns an S&W EZ .380. Both because they're easier for her to rack than the PM9 that she had been carrying. If racking the Kahrs is an issue for your wife, there is another option. The S&W EZ 9mm. It has been touted as not only easy to rack but also lighter on recoil than some other 9mms.
For that matter somewhere down the road I may need an easier racking handgun myself. I don't think I could get my wife to give up here Sig P238 for the EZ 9mm though.

I believe back in the day, when I was taking the wifey around, window firearm shopping, the small Sig's were the easiest semi's to rack. And smooth. My wifey likes the simplicity of revolvers, but you just can't get thin and small and light like you can with an Elsie Pea. Tucked in her waistband with a Remora is about as comfy as it gets and that's high on her priority list. I was always used to a bit of discomfort to be able to carry. Now, I carry the Wifey's ex SP101, with .357 firepower, which is handled pretty well by the SP. I also use a Remora in warmer weather and the holsters also work great for me. I've shot the LCP a bit and it's pretty smooth for a mouse gun. OK trigger. Actually, I was surprised that the trigger was as good as it was. I still don't think that it's enough firepower but it's her decision.

[Ralph III]

Ok, I will play the game a little in regards to the capabilities of the .380acp. Just FYI, I've been shooting for nearly 50 years as my father began taking me hunting at age 7. We were big into deer hunting for most of my life and I loved every aspect of it. I loved the challenge of the hunt and the comradeship with family and close friends/mentors. Anyhow, I have shot a lot of big game as well as small game over many decades with various guns and bullets. I've also shot a lot of various targets in plinking (cans, bottles, boards, steel, etc). So you get a feel of what a gun or bullet is capable of.

Quote by I.Like.Turtles "I do not think the .380 can penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach the vitals...."

So what do you base your opinion on? Because modern ballistics show the .380acp meets the FBI standards (12in - 18in) and is fully capable of consistently penetrating to vitals even through numerous layers of denim/clothing.

If you look at AmmoQuest the Fiocchi Extrema XTP hollow point average penetration is 13.42 in. through bare gel and 15.68 in. through 4 layers of heavy denim. Precision One hollow points averaged 13.8 in. through bare gel and 13.5 in. through 4 layers heavy denim. He ruled Precision One to be the winner because one Fiocchi round slightly over penetrated to 18.5 in. Except for the one Fiocchi round that slightly over penetrated, every round fired from both manufacturers met the FBI standards for penetration through both bare gel and four layers of heavy denim! This is modern ballistics and manufacturing for you. This isn't .380acp ballistics from 30 years ago.

He then came upon Lehigh XP and tested it. The Lehigh XP performed even better with the bare gel and heavy denim. He also found that it made a greater wound cavity. I'd take that with a grain of salt however given the following.

I shoot the Fiocchi Extrema through our .380's but I also have the Precision One and Lehigh XP bullets. All of those bullets can cause some serious damage and each carries a punch. I don't buy into the hype over the damage the XP bullets can cause though. The XP and XD damage is caused by "hydraulic energy" as they describe it. Meaning the flutes create waves/pressure that essentially pushes/explodes the flesh. That is the best I can describe it, sorry. I found that to be pure hype though when comparing the Lehigh XP to the Fiocchi hollow points. I shot fours milk jugs with water. The Fiocchi hollow points completely blew apart their two jugs sending them flying through the air. Whereas the Lehigh XP rounds just made nice clean holes while barely moving the jugs. It compared more to a FMJ in damage and nothing like what a hollow point can do. I've contacted both Lehigh and Underwood and neither responded in regards and it should be noted neither offer any stats or video to support their "hydrolic energy" claims.

Having said that, I do believe the Lehigh XP does satisfy its' major objective and benefit in .380 acp. It is barrier blind and it most assuredly guarantee's adequate penetration. It is also legal, be sure to confirm this yourself, in states or cities where hollow points may not be allowed. A lot of folks will actually mix in a few XP with their Hollow points to insure penetration while maintaining some stopping power.

I have not shot the XD round to make a comparison. I've seen some impressive video but never a true comparison in .380acp caliber. Nor would I opt to carry a light projectile at 65gr when I can carry proven 90gr hollow points.

Quote by berretabone "I tell her that I don't think the odds are too good in being able to stop a large person, with a thick winter coat on, with warm clothes on underneath, trying to harm you, with a .380 cal. pistol.

That is a legitimate point but you are making a straw-man argument. You are rejecting the .380acp in general by limiting your argument to a specific point.

A lot of people will use different conceal carry weapons depending on the time of season/clothing. A more powerful and larger gun could be used during the winter because it is easier to conceal with winter clothing. So your wife could go with a 9mm during that time of year. Otherwise, if she is insistent on using her .380acp she could swap out the bullets and go with such as Lehigh or Underwood XP. That is a proven deep penetrating bullet.

The golden rule is to carry the biggest gun you are capable of carrying that you can control and shoot accurately. You have to remember that accuracy is more important than caliber. I opt to carry a 9mm myself because of various factors (conceal-ability, accuracy, power). However, I have absolutely no reservations about carrying a .380acp caliber gun especially during warmer months. I've shot that round enough to know it has plenty of stopping power for typical conceal carry purposes. It also has some advantages. You can go with a smaller gun while maintaining control due to lesser recoil of .380acp. I live in the deep south and so for most of the year most folks can be found wearing shorts or light clothing so a small .380acp fits in well.

Irrespective, if the crap hits the fan it's better to have a small pistol on your person than a larger pistol sitting back at the home in a dresser drawer. Again, I've shot the .380acp enough to have confidence in it for the average person and I'll repeat; accuracy trumps caliber.

God Bless,
Ralph

[I_Like_Turtles]

Good stuff....Ralph III.....I guess we'll just have to do a little duel. You with your .380 and my friend with his .50 AE. Whichever of you is standing the longest wins. LOL

I don't think water jugs or wet newspaper is realistic testing media. I base my "bullet tests" on tn9outdoors gel tests that he conducted for several years and then posted to Youtube. I also expect rounds shot into gel to perform at the outer edge of their performance envelope, i.e., "they will do their utter best there."

That of course, is not realistic, as a bullet's "utter best" is seldom experienced in combat.

Mass = deeper penetration and I don't think the gun writers of the 1990's were wrong when they were opposed to the .380 as "having enough mass." I just don't think meeting minimum FBI standards (in gel, which is not a body) is enough for me to bet my life on when all I get might be one shot. Barely passing FBI minimum standards, I don't think, is enough.

With modern handgun designs, there just isn't much need for one to go down to a .380. The Kahr PM9 series is proof of that. Along that same line of thinking, my Kahr CW 45 is the same size in overall dimensions as my S&W 638 revolver, only the revolver's cylinder is wider. That really puts things into context! If I might be limited to one shot, I'd much rather it be a 230 grain .45 ACP than a 110 grain .38 SPL.

Now ultimately it is a personal choice....a friend (rather foolishly in my opinion) does road biking with a NAA .22 Magnum and feels "it's enough." He also thinks he'll go to prison if he shoots an attacking dog, which I also think is nuts. However, that's his freedom as an American. Myself, I don't road bike (too fat and too many redneck idiots around here plus texting drivers) but if I did I'd still carry my Kahr CW 45 with 230 grain Speer Gold Dots which is what I carry in that. Accurate, shoots to point-of-aim, and recoil is decently manageable. When I compete testing and practice with my new-to-me K9 I'll carry that when I bike. *At the moment I only "bike" in a big mall parking lot, since the gym is closed, and I don't have room for a stationary bike at home.

What is the pistol caliber of the militaries of the world? .380 or is it 9mm Parabellum? What do police departments issue? What's their minimum? It's not .380.

Why do I want to go from .45 ACP back to 9mm Parabellum? Fighting my flinch. At some point I may also go down to .380 (back down in my case as I used to cross my fingers behind my back and swear by it) but I am not there yet. If and when I do, I'll tell people "I don't think it can reliably reach the vitals but it's the best I can handle right now."

"Accuracy trumps caliber..." Ultimately yes, cannot argue with that, but it's not realistic, due to the nature of our situation. We, being defenders, will never get the first move. We will always be behind the ball as the criminal will never announce his/her intentions. Most of us draw from concealment, which further slows reaction time and causes us to carry smaller weapons. We must be able to put the maximum amount of damage onto the attacker with the least amount of shots and when it comes to incapacitation, that means reaching and overwhelming the heart, liver, lungs, and spine with damage, damage that must traverse their chest or sides first. We need a certain mass to do that which I don't think 95 grains is enough of.

I'm personally a little fearful of political fall out from use of a Lehigh bullet. I think some idiotic prosecutor would demonize it and the ambulance chasers would be all over it. I don't think that should be allowed but I am not a judge. It's an interesting approach though.....and we must always know what is beyond our target and adjust for it.

[berettabone]

Bigger boolits make bigger holes...………………………..bigger bullets make larger wound channels...……………………..the only reason that the FBI ceased using the .40 cal. is because of recoil and accuracy(they didn't practice enough), so by that same token, if .380 cal. meets their tests and approval...…….then why doesn't the FBI carry .380 as it's standard caliber and firearm????? There would be even less recoil and even better accuracy...………..I know why they don't...……………………...I also have been shooting every caliber at different times, for over 50+ yrs. and seeing what the .380 caliber does under different shooting situations isn't even close enough in ballistics for me to even consider using it for defensive purposes. All these special bullets with special price tags don't mean diddly to me. I'll bet you've never seen anyone really bash any type of ammo. It's bad for sales. They are going to talk up every type, every caliber, and every style of bullet. They're going to tell you that they all do wonderful things. I'm able to shoot in my back yard up nort, and believe me, I've shot .380 in to every type material and thickness, and the performance I want is just not there. They can keep their gel, and their 4 layers of denim, and their water jugs. I've seen the light

[King Rat]

By the way PrecisionOne did add the Plus P ammo after it was rated #1 from by AmmoQuest. I have not seen the Ballistics for this round, but know it is 50 fps faster. And the quality I have seen from PrecisionOne after thousands of rounds gives me confidence they have produced a even better round. They Recommend it for the Glock 26, but I have successfully shot hundreds of rounds out of the Pico and Kahr which you know is rated for Plus P or higher pressure Ammo. The Pico especially has seen a lot of that ammo shot through it.
In the winter time, I do carry the Nano/Apx or Kahr CM9. Forget it in the summer on most occasions. Even these small but fantastic shooters are too heavy for a pair of light weight shorts. I also carry the Smith 642 and the Ruger LCR9mm.

And just to watch BerettaBone loose his grits, I carry a Keltec P32 on many hot summer days. For that gun, I do carry the Leheigh Defender Plus P. And if anyone thinks that getting shot in the upper chest, neck and face with 8 fast rounds of that stuff is a joke, then ok with me. One of the things I have a true belief in, is many people do not realize how much you can do with a small barrel pistol. Very much underrated.

Keltec P32 fully loaded with 8 rounds of Defender Plus P is only 10oz of weight.

[Ralph III]

Ha, ha, ha. I love strong opinions and good debate!

I'm going to pick apart a few points later though. If y'all don't mind.


Ralph

[DavidR]

Hey King Rat - great pic but please stop posting photos like that. I do NOT need another pistol in another caliber!

How’s the P32 trigger?