OC spray?

[340pd]

Today's times are different and it has made me look at alternative methods of self defense. The likelihood of accidentally getting caught up in one of these well organized "peaceful protests" is a reality.
Should that event happen my choices are not as clear as we all think.
The macho in me says hit the skinny pedal on the right and push it to the floor or revert to my Sig M11A1 followed by a call to CCWSafe to get me a lawyer.
Common sense in me says take a second to evaluate the crowd and grab a can of OC just in case.
That led me to research and I settled on a product that is readily available, low cost, has a simple safety and operating system, and is legal in all 50 states. I bought a few containers including a couple cans of practice cans filled with water.
I do not have an interest in this stuff nor do I push it on TV it appears to be effective and bought direct from the company it is low cost, quickly shipped, and available in a variety of packaging. I went this way based of ease of use, effectiveness in the videos posted, and a good instinctive safety.
Is is a substitute for my gun? Nope. Might it buy me some time? Yep. Which would I use when? That is the question.

Any thoughts?

[dustnchips]

There are some potent gel mixtures out there with pepper and CS. Unfortunately they are not legal in Wisconsin. I am waiting for this winter to see if I can get some in Florida. The gel will not blow back on you and tends to stick to the bad guy. They claim that there is enough in them for a few practice shots and several attackers so in a small crowd they should have enough to get you out. I feel pretty safe around my home town and will wait for winter to get the best available. These things are convient to. They are less than 4" long and under an inch in diameter. They have a strap and can be held in the palm of your hand by a jogger. I will carry it in Wi to. Legality be damned.

[340pd]

Do your research before you decide between gel, fog, or stream. Cops during riots work at distance so fog for crowds, stream for individual close up work. Not many gel supporters.

[jeepster09]

Back when I was on PD we used CN over CS because it was faster acting.

[I_Like_Turtles]

Jeepster...what is the difference between CN and CS? I have tried to look this up without much success.

340, very impressive that you want to carry less lethal! That's an excellent way to keep your legal costs down.

I have carried pepper spray off and on since 1999 and religiously since 2012. Having it last summer kept me from having to shoot an attacker. Having used it first before drawing impressed the investigating officers. Had I been forced to shoot, I suspect it would have impressed the grand jury.

My pepper spray got the job done but a bit slower than I liked (forcing me to draw but thankfully, not forced to shoot). I suspect that was due to my spray being 0.5% major capsaicinoids. I now carry something 3x more concentrated. (Sabre Red). This is the choice of my state's state police.

I'd stay away from gels. Those are apparently rather slow acting and the attacker will be pretty mad when you get something on him that he doesn't feel any affect from. He can also throw it back at you.
Fog (cone) is out due to how much that drifts with the wind. Not much range at all.

Stream is the best bet for the self-defender. Good range, easy to hit with (do practice some), fast acting (hit eyes first, then nose and mouth), decent range. Range is nice but you won't spray anyone beyond say 5 feet. My attacker was too close...less than 3 feet away. I got splashed but it only resulted in my eyes being red and feeling "warm." I was still at 100%. That was my fault letting him run at me like that. I should have sprayed sooner and had it in hand much sooner.

Here is a great video on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8D5isAQhrc

Containers matter. I will only carry the Mark 6 container which is shown in the video. It's thumb depression which works better than index finger. It has a flip top safety. Clip this into your front weak side pocket. Your strong hand is for other things.....your weak hand for flashlight, phone calls, and pepper spray. 20 years of carry and no one has ever asked what the black clip was. 8 years of carry and 3 people have asked what my holstered flashlight was. One guy that asked was Tokyo airport security. *He liked the flashlight.

Do watch out for lint build up.

The stuff has an expiration date, usually 3 years after manufacture.

You must carry it every day. If, like most men, and every officer I've asked about it, feel that "you're too tough to carry it" then stop carrying the gun too. Also, ditch the car jack. A real man would lift up his car with one hand and do the tire change with the other hand. LOL

Myself, I've not that tough. I have no boxing or wrestling skills. I'd like to have but don't. I also don't want to get close to a guy who might have a virus, likely smells bad, and may not have any qualms about stabbing my guts out. "Hands on" is something I will do if forced to, but I'd rather use pepper spray. I'd much rather avoid the guy but some guys don't like to be avoided.

Pepper spray has a deterrent effect. I've used that effect twice and didn't spray the aggressors. I suspect they'd been sprayed before and didn't like a repeat. I didn't have to warn them, I could have hosed all three down, legally, and laughed as they rolled around. Of course, if they were in that 10% not affected, I could have had bigger problems. Always handle your issues with the least amount of force, including avoiding the problem in the first place. I think it's best we avoid riots, protests, and liberal cities, especially downtown, and especially right now. At least until Joe Biden wins the election and all the riots and lockdowns immediately stop. Odd how that works.

[340pd]

Good comments. John Correia has moved on to a different product. I went this direction based in his video and supporting youtube videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mmrCATVyjA

[AJBert]

I've been sprayed with OC more than a few times, during training in the Navy, and we had to go through a "gauntlet" immediately after being sprayed. Knowing that I, and everyone else, could still function really leads me to believe that anyone who has been sprayed before really has no problem with being sprayed if they have ill will in their heart.

Still, better than carrying nothing. On the other hand, may cause a delay in drawing your firearm which could turn out rather bad for you and not the bad guy. Works best on dogs for sure.

[I_Like_Turtles]

I've been sprayed with OC more than a few times, during training in the Navy, and we had to go through a "gauntlet" immediately after being sprayed. Knowing that I, and everyone else, could still function really leads me to believe that anyone who has been sprayed before really has no problem with being sprayed if they have ill will in their heart.

Still, better than carrying nothing. On the other hand, may cause a delay in drawing your firearm which could turn out rather bad for you and not the bad guy. Works best on dogs for sure.

My attacker was a vet, which at a minimum, means he got a dose of tear gas in basic, but even the bare minimum recommended by Mr. Correia (0.5%) MC was enough to save his life. He was so close to me, he easily could have reached out and grabbed me and I doubt it would have gone well for me, unless my Speer Gold Dots hit something vital like descending aorta and I lasted long enough for him to bleed out. I have no doubt the man would have broken my neck, strangled me to death, or stomped my guts out once he got hold of me. Had I, by some miracle, gotten on top, I'd have had his two buddies kicking me in my ribs and head.

I've read the "don't carry pepper spray, you'll be late with your gun" elsewhere on other forums and find that a rather odd rationale. If one can solve a problem before it rises to the level requiring lethal force, that's a very good thing. Also, not all problems require lethal force. I said back in 2014, "if George Zimmerman had had pepper spray, we wouldn't know his name." A police officer giving a lecture in one of John Correia's videos said the same thing.

To the original poster......I would not, under any circumstances, be driving where there is a likelihood I'd encounter a protest. I didn't go to any Trump rallies back in 2016 for that reason. I rather wish I had of attended one, those looked like a lot of fun, but definitely not going now. I don't need my car set on fire or worse.

Honestly, if attacked by a large crowd of rioters (um, "peaceful protesters") one might want to drop a smoke grenade and run the other way! What the nation has come to.....SMH.

[jeepster09]

CN vs CS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(spray)

[I_Like_Turtles]

Thank you for that but the question is, is either CN or CS gas really effective? Massad Ayoob says "no"in his excellent book, Deadly Force, Understanding Your Right to Self Defense, page 43, but I'm not sure which one or both he's talking about. The 2019 version of Mace brand "Triple Action" favors one of those over OC spray, which is why I went over to Sabre Red after reading more on the subject.

340pd...yes John switched to POM and my original version of my reply mentioned that but I lost that reply when the internet here went down. My Sabre Red is good for another two years, I'll stick with it for the time being.

Again, glad you are going this route. Hope you never have to use it. On the plus side, the legal threshold for OC use is even less than that of a punch, as far as I can tell. Where do you plan to carry yours?