I think Kahr is done

[DavidR]

Which of the following statements is not true:

1. People who want a small-framed snubby buy 5 round small-framed snubbies because 10 round small-framed snubbies are not available.

2. People who want a tiny-framed 380 buy 6 round tiny-framed 380s because 10 round tiny-framed 380s are not available.

3. People who want a micro compact 9 buy 6 round micro compact 9s because 10 round micro compact 9s are not available.

[King Rat]

None of what you said addresses the direction of the market. You are too close to this issue, and you keep missing the point.

The LCP is a different market than a main EDC ultracompact 9mm.

As are J frames.

I understand marketing very well and my comparisons with other guns was to show that the Market is not always the future and that the market of what you perceive to be, is not the true market. And not all people buy because of the internet market. Maketing in itself is a lot about selling ads, and trends or fads which go and come. If Sig came out with another single stack 9mm, it would not surprise me in the least. Maybe you missed my point.

[King Rat]

Which of the following statements is not true:

People who want a small-framed snubby buy 5 round small-framed snubbies because 10 round small-framed snubbies are not available.

People who want a tiny-framed 380 buy 6 round tiny-framed 380s because 10 round tiny-framed 380s are not available.

People who want a micro compact 9 buy 6 round micro compact 9s because 10 round micro compact 9s are not available.

They are all not true. Good point.

[DavidR]

They are all not true. Good point.

It’s possible you misread my post.

[MMyers1970]

Which of the following statements is not true:

1. People who want a small-framed snubby buy 5 round small-framed snubbies because 10 round small-framed snubbies are not available.

2. People who want a tiny-framed 380 buy 6 round tiny-framed 380s because 10 round tiny-framed 380s are not available.

3. People who want a micro compact 9 buy 6 round micro compact 9s because 10 round micro compact 9s are not available.

Well, it's impossible to make a small-frame 10 round snubbie in the same caliber as a 5 round snubbie.
It's also impossible to make a 10 round .380 around the same size as a 6 round tiny-framed .380. Those are pocket guns and every millimeter counts.

But SIG and the others have made pistols which are within millimeters of being identical to 6 round pistols, and since the vast majority of them are carried in holster on belts, either IWB or OWB, the slight size change doesn't matter.

If I was shopping for a handgun today, my first carry pistol, there is no reason NOT to choose the additional capacity.

[DavidR]

Well, it's impossible to make a small-frame 10 round snubbie in the same caliber as a 5 round snubbie.
It's also impossible to make a 10 round .380 around the same size as a 6 round tiny-framed .380. Those are pocket guns and every millimeter counts.

But SIG and the others have made pistols which are within millimeters of being identical to 6 round pistols, and since the vast majority of them are carried in holster on belts, either IWB or OWB, the slight size change doesn't matter.

If I was shopping for a handgun today, my first carry pistol, there is no reason NOT to choose the additional capacity.

We’re in complete agreement. People buy low capacity snubbies and pocket 380s because they can’t get them with high capacity. Micro compact 9s are a different story.

The CM9 could still fill a niche for some people who want to pocket carry a 9 as it’s a tiny bit smaller than something like the 365.

[berettabone]

Well, it's impossible to make a small-frame 10 round snubbie in the same caliber as a 5 round snubbie.
It's also impossible to make a 10 round .380 around the same size as a 6 round tiny-framed .380. Those are pocket guns and every millimeter counts.

But SIG and the others have made pistols which are within millimeters of being identical to 6 round pistols, and since the vast majority of them are carried in holster on belts, either IWB or OWB, the slight size change doesn't matter.

If I was shopping for a handgun today, my first carry pistol, there is no reason NOT to choose the additional capacity.

I think you need a new measuring device. The millimeters you mention are awfully large millimeters. Sig 365 is 5.8 in. long, 4.3in high and weighs 17.8 ozs. The Hellcat is 6 in long, 4.0 in. high and weighs 17.9 ozs. The LCR II for example is 5.2 in. long 3.71 in. high and weighs 11.2 ozs. So much for a millimeters example. Quite a large difference between length, height and weight and substantially more than "millimeters". As has been mentioned, some of these new high capacity firearms are not the "cream of the crop" as far as accuracy and being shooter friendly. Handgun capacity is the last thing I think of when contemplating a carry firearm. Saying screw the caliber wars, I will put the stopping power, ease of use, and reliability of my 5 shot .357 revolver over any of the previously mentioned example firearms. Unless you're going to Afghanistan, worrying about capacity is a waste of time. If you look at stats, all that extra ammo and extra weight will be useless since most responses in defensive situations last less that 3 seconds and 3 rds. Too many new shooters worrying about capacity instead of comfort, accuracy, ease of use, weight/ease of carry, sights, trigger. BTW, I carried one of those "heavy lump" MK9's for 9 years. OWB, IWB and pocket. If I wasn't older than dirt, I'd probably still be carrying it. Also, my wifey's LCP II is more accurate than my Kahr was for sure, even with lousy sights.

[MahrLalk]

We’re in complete agreement. People buy low capacity snubbies and pocket 380s because they can’t get them with high capacity. Micro compact 9s are a different story.

The CM9 could still fill a niche for some people who want to pocket carry a 9 as it’s a tiny bit smaller than something like the 365.

I only bought a Kahr because I want a small 380. The micro-9 market is clearly heading towards 1.5-stack mags and optics ready slides. With Kahr not making any "new" product since the 2000s, it may still live but at least it's not growing. Where is Rohrbaugh now?

Also with new innovations in holsters and carrying methods, the advantages of pocket carry may diminish. Where will Kahr stand then?

Just my 2c. I'm new so please go easy on me.

[MMyers1970]

I only bought a Kahr because I want a small 380. The micro-9 market is clearly heading towards 1.5-stack mags and optics ready slides. With Kahr not making any "new" product since the 2000s, it may still live but at least it's not growing. Where is Rohrbaugh now?

Also with new innovations in holsters and carrying methods, the advantages of pocket carry may diminish. Where will Kahr stand then?

Just my 2c. I'm new so please go easy on me.

I bought my CW380 because I have a lot of trigger time on Kahrs, but also because it was the smallest "real pistol" .380 on the market. The LCP and the other Kel-Tec clones have lousy triggers and poor sights. And Kahr OWNED that market for years. But now the LCPII has a short, crisp trigger, does all the things the Kahr does, plus it works AND is made by a company with actual good customer service.

There will always be a desire for pocket carry, and small .380s are perfect for that---but if the Kahr is no longer the best semi-auto at that, I don't know what Kahr is going to do.

Rohrbaugh's products are now made by Remington, poorly. The tiny .380 is evidently a tough product to make work unless you make it a blowback design. That's why the CW380 is such a problem child. Ruger has apparently made it work.

I don't want people to think I'm ragging on Kahr---I love my Kahr pistols, and I carry one every day. But I realize the market is leaving them behind, and if they don't invest some money in their product, they're going to die. I've heard talk that Kahr Firearms Group is doing very well with their other divisions. People are buying the Auto-Ordinance, Magnum Research/Desert Eagle, and BFR lines aplenty.

I think they doomed themselves when they brought out the "Value Line". It allowed them to sell more pistols, but they also rendered their other polymer line kind of superfluous. And, as much as I love the steel pistols, those are a niche item. Reports are they've sold less than 2000 Kahr T9s in the entire history of its existence. They can't possibly sell many K or MKs either. If those are all that set them apart from other makers, they're in trouble.

[MahrLalk]

MMyers1970, I 100% agree with you here. I bought a CW380 instead of an LCP II for Kahr's useful sights, smooth DAO trigger, and aesthetics. But I do know that many folks prefer the crisp trigger of an LCP II. For me Kahr only has a very slight edge in the 380 market, which is already niche compared to 9. With other micro-9s offered at ~$500 with night sights, higher capacity, and sometimes optics-ready slides, Kahr really needs to step up their game. Of course, I believe we are all in this discussion with good intentions, instead of just bashing Kahr.