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Thread: DocGKR - Ballistics Expert

  1. #11
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    garyb - like you, I carried CorBon 135 gr JHP for a few years, then I started to experiment a bit. I've been searching for test date, as I'm sure that DocGKR has tested just abiut everythng. I did, however, find the following test data on a post from DocGKR which includes 40 S&W 135 gr. PowerBall vs. 180 gr. HST. When PowerBall first came out, I switched to it during the winter months thinking it would better penetrate heavy clothing, and also thought it would better survive a trip through auto glass enroute to a car jacker.

    I'll try to e-mail DocGKR today for info on the 135 gr JHP:


    Let's review the critical data differences between Powerball and HST when compared using the same proven test methodology:

    9 mm Corbon 100 gr +P PowerBall 1555 f/s from G17
    BG: pen=10.9”, RD=0.60”, RW=93.9gr
    4 layer denim: pen=11.4”, RD=0.58”, RW=97.5gr
    The mighty 4.7” of pen after the auto windshield was not comforting…

    9mm Fed 147 gr JHP HST (P9HST2) from G17:
    BG: vel=1037f/s, pen=11.9”, RD=0.64”, RW=147.8gr
    4 layer denim: vel=1049f/s, pen=14.7”, RD=0.54”, RW=147.5gr
    auto windshield: vel=1042 f/s, pen=13.4”, RD=0.53”, RW=140.4gr

    .40 S&W Corbon 135 gr Powerball from S&W 4006
    BG: vel=1362 f/s, pen=11.6”, RD=0.65”, RW=131.4gr
    4 layer denim: vel=1359 f/s, pen=12.1”, RD=0.65”, RW=131.9gr
    auto windshield: vel=1365 f/s, pen=7.9”, RD=0.61”, RW=103.6gr

    .40 S&W Fed 180 gr JHP HST (P40HST1) from S&W 4006
    BG: vel=960 f/s, pen=12.6”, RD=0.65”, RW=181.1gr
    4 layer denim: vel=961 f/s, pen=15.6”, RD=0.62, 181.3 gr
    auto windshield: vel=904 f/s, pen=15.2”, RD=0.47”, RW=180.4gr

    .45 ACP Corbon 165 gr +P Powerball from 1911
    BG: vel=1230 f/s, pen=12.1”, RD=0.70”, RW=158.8gr
    4 layer denim: vel=1267 f/s, pen=11.8”, RD=0.66”, RW=159.7gr
    auto windshield: vel=1251 f/s, pen=5.5”, RD=0.73”, RW=143.5gr

    .45 ACP Fed 230 gr +P JHP HST (P45HST1) from 1911
    BG: vel=926 f/s, pen=12.6”, RD=0.74”, RW=231.8gr
    4 layer denim: vel=915 f/s, pen=15.4”, RD=0.67, 231.1 gr
    auto windshield: vel=918 f/s, pen=19.7”, RD=0.54”, RW=228.6gr
    Last edited by robmcd; 12-02-2010 at 10:20 AM.
    "There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at without result!"
    ~Sir Winston Churchill

  2. #12
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    Interesting what happens when you change your thoughts on something. Now I'm starting to lean away from the lighter 135's in the 40cal, as I've learned that velocity and power isn't everything. Perhaps penetration, size & expansion, and momentum (mass X velocity) are more important considerations. Trying to find something that feels more like my target/practice ammo Win 165 FMJ. I am interested in the Speer Gold Dot 155 JHP where www.firearmstactical.com shows it to have 13" gel penetration with expansion to .64"; and 16" denim pen with exp to .60"
    It is comparable to Corbon 140 DPX with 12.6 gel pen and .64 exp; and 11.5" denim exp with .64" exp. Corbon DPX was designed around the Kahr, but a slight edge (and better price) goes to Gold Dot 155. I know some guys have said that price should not matter in defense ammo, but the reality is that if you can find something equal or better and at a better price, why spend more. Both seem to be very good choices and meet the criteria, based on all the ballistic and penetration data I have read thus far. However, I'd need to shoot both together to determine which I preferred through my PM40...accuracy and feel are just as important. Still researching...... Maybe even the Hornady 155 XTP JHP or the Federal 155 HST???? Good dialog and info.
    My Sword - PM4044N/CTL/Talons
    - "One should diligently train at all times." Miyamoto Musashi
    - "Train in technique until it requires no thought - no mind and just happens." Takan Soho
    - "The truth beyond the technique....Here's where we stop thinking and start shooting." Brian Enos
    - "A single sword against the cold sky." Yamaoka Tesshu
    - "You must concentrate upon and consecrate yourself wholly to each day, as though a fire were raging in your hair."
    Taisen Deshimaru
    - "Know your sword!"

  3. #13
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    garyb - Coming from CorBon 135's myself, I lean toward the 155 gr. Gold Dot or Tactical HST because they seem to offer the best blend of muzzle velocity, muzzle energy and wound ballistics. Another feature that I like is the nickel plated cases and sealed primers. The Tactical HST probably has a slight edge due to sharp edges when expanded, but the profile of the Gold Dot is more conducive to positive feeding.

    Gold Dot 155 gr = 1200 fps, 496 ft-lbs.
    LE Tactical HST 155 gr = 1160 fps, 463 ft-lbs.

    Gold Dot 180 gr = 1025 fps, 420 ft-lbs.
    LE Tactical HST 180 gr = 1010 fps, 408 ft-lbs.

    When students ask me what kind of gun, ammo, etc they should buy, my answer is always the same - reliable. I guess that reliability is subjective, as it's often tied to our specific application and personal opinions. I know that applies to me. Uh-oh, I just found out that Speer offers an LE Gold Dot 200 gr in .40 S&W. I need a box!

    By the way, www.ammunitiontogo.com usually has both the Gold Dot and HST in stock in 50-round boxes.

    Happy Holidays to everyone on the forum.
    "There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at without result!"
    ~Sir Winston Churchill

  4. #14
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    Wish somebody had empirical data on reaction when different type and weight bullets hit BONE. I have personal experience with deer, elk, antelope, bear and others. A soft point bullet usually terminates it penetration and depending on energy, breaks bone and drives it farther. my experience also suggest, that a compound fracture or complete breakage of a larger bone brings the ]most effective stopping of the animal. Therefore I believe that the heavyest, fastest, FMJ, Truncated bullet, that is also one that promotes the best shot placement, is the one for me! That said, not only do trucated cone FMJ penetrate windshields and most other obsticles, BUT, if a bone is not struck will normally exit with potential for damage to others!

  5. #15
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    earle888, I wonder what the expansion of that FMJ would be compared to a JHP or Barnes expander type? I am comparing penetration and expansion characteristics (with sharp tearing edges), as they both equate to tissue damage and I honestly don't have the comparisons with FMJ. I agree with your comments on bone. Sometimes I purposely take a deer through the front shoulders, so they don't make the mad dash to bordering property, etc.......They go down and stay down. However, the shoulders get destroyed, so sometimes I simply take them through the chest/heart/lungs and have a little track job (<100yrds). A good bone hit puts them down. However, on humans and in an emergent situation under stress, other than a head shot (for which any ammo will work fine), I can't see bone being a calculated opportunity. It could just happen by chance, but focus on center mass, the ribs and sternum are not really the same deal. Perhaps the hips and groin in very close combat, but why take the chance when center mass is a larger target. I'm interested in your thoughts. By the way, you were absolutely correct about the penetration issue...I admit that I was wrong with my original selection of 135gr ammo as I incorrectly focused primarily on velocity and wanted to avoid over penetration and the risk of collateral damage. Penetration is important...you were correct.

    I am starting to focus on Corbons 140 DPX, Gold Dot 155 JHP, or 155 Tactical HST. I saw some good videos of the Corbons that were convincing and they are worth the extra cost. Claims are that Corbons will penetrate auto glass, doors, plywood, etc... and the expansion and tear edges are good. Corbon told me they were designed for short light guns like the Kahr. I am starting to appreciate them more and more. Each of these seem to meet the penetration and expansion criteria. For some strange reason, I am just not wanting heavy carry ammo.
    This ammo selection stuff must be way too over rated. I read in another forum where one guy felt that defense ammo was all good and to quit quibbling over it and just focus on shooting better...shot placement. He makes a good point to some degree. I guess we are all looking for that extra 1% edge should it be needed.
    My Sword - PM4044N/CTL/Talons
    - "One should diligently train at all times." Miyamoto Musashi
    - "Train in technique until it requires no thought - no mind and just happens." Takan Soho
    - "The truth beyond the technique....Here's where we stop thinking and start shooting." Brian Enos
    - "A single sword against the cold sky." Yamaoka Tesshu
    - "You must concentrate upon and consecrate yourself wholly to each day, as though a fire were raging in your hair."
    Taisen Deshimaru
    - "Know your sword!"

  6. #16
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    I stumbled onto this old thread and I thought I may be able to contribute to it. I think some will be bored with this.
    I've been a long time follower of Doc.GKR, and Doc. Martin Faclker since the early,mid 2000's. And my interest in ballistics results goes back to the FBI 1986 Miami, FL. firefight.
    I've lost most of what I had from these writings.

    http://www.dlgunsmithing.com/uploads...ry_roberts.pdf

    This is what someone at AR.15 put together of Doc GKR's writtings, thanks

    http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel...#mozTocId20101

    I found this to be very informative of what happened in 1986

    http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86b.html

    Here's a site I go to where Doc GKR contributes. Read the stickies. I apologize to the mods for posting another forum link, but I didn't think it conflicted with what is done here.

    https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition

    Then there's this written by Doc. Martin Falker

    http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

    Here's the one under "The Human Target" heading along with suggestions from local deputy sheriffs that decided how the wife and I practice for real world encounters.

    http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

    IMHO is there isn't any true one stop bullet, just some that may work better.
    Because of my own ballistic tests, we decided on two brands for our K & PM9's, and Glock 17, 9mm 147 Fed. HST & 147 Win. RA9T. For 1911 .45's the same. We also felt in the event of a involved shooting we wanted to carry what local LEOs carried, but you knew that.

    We practice with human shaped targets that are rounded to resemble the human torso. With a post or something in the back of it to simulate the spinal column. So shots taken at an angle may start through the rib cage





    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuwSzVBguDY

    Ok ! Everybody can wake up now

  7. #17
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    The Miami shootout has had a profound effect on many things and continues to do so today.

    I don't give it much credence myself. They knew what they were dealing with and rather than properly gear up or put more qualified people on it the primarily office workers went out in suits and ties and 9's.

    Suddenly everyone needed bigger guns. I agreed with this. Now the circle is coming around again and the 9's acceptable again due to better bullet technology. This I do not agree with.

    Sadly the FBI was hopelessly outgunned both in firearms and tactics.
    In Memory of Paul "Dietrich" Stines.
    Dad: Say something nice to your cousin Shirley
    Dietrich: For a fat girl you sure don't sweat much.
    Cue sound of Head slap.

    RIP Muggsy & TMan

    "If you are a warrior legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that JOCKO will not come today."

  8. #18
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    Cool thread. It makes my head hurt tho. For now, I'm sticking with my .40. Old habits die hard.
    ​O|||||||O

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bawanna View Post
    The Miami shootout has had a profound effect on many things and continues to do so today.

    I don't give it much credence myself. They knew what they were dealing with and rather than properly gear up or put more qualified people on it the primarily office workers went out in suits and ties and 9's.

    Suddenly everyone needed bigger guns. I agreed with this. Now the circle is coming around again and the 9's acceptable again due to better bullet technology. This I do not agree with.

    Sadly the FBI was hopelessly outgunned both in firearms and tactics.
    I agree that they went into a situation not being prepared for all eventualities, but they all weren't carrying 9s There were some .357's, but god only knows why they were loaded with .38 158 +P rnds. IIRC those were an instant fight stopper

    Weaponry and wounds

    Agents


    • Richard Manauzzi: lost control of weapon in the initial vehicle collision, no shots fired. Minor wounds from shotgun pellets.
    • Gordon McNeill: Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357 Magnum revolver, six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck.
    • Edmundo Mireles: Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun, five rounds 00 buckshot fired, .357 Magnum revolver, Smith & Wesson Model 686 (Not FBI issue, but personally owned .357's and .38's could be approved for carry by supervisors, same applies with McNeil's Model 19), six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
    • Gilbert Orrantia: S&W (model unknown, likely a Model 13, as it was an issued weapon at the time) .357 Magnum revolver, 12 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Wounded by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
    • John Hanlon: Smith & Wesson Model 36 .38 Special revolver, five rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
    • Benjamin Grogan: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, nine rounds fired. Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
    • Jerry Dove: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, 20+ rounds fired. Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
    • Ronald Risner: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, 14 rounds fired, S&W Model 60 .38 Special revolver, one round .38 Special +P fired. Not wounded.

    Suspects



    Ruger Mini-14



    • William Matix: Smith & Wesson Model 3000 12-gauge shotgun, one round #6 shot fired. Killed after being shot six times.
    • Michael Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington with folding stock, at least 42 rounds fired, S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired, Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired. Killed after being shot 12 times.




    After 1986 the FBI seemed to still like the 9mm rnd. All they did was change guns. From S&W to Sig, to Browning Hi Powers for HRT's. Weren't .45's in there somewhere ? I seem to remember some Hi-Cap Para-ordnance in there somewhere.
    Then what, they went to a loaded down 10mm rnd. that agents complained about. Then when the .40 S&W rnd. came out they jumped on that bandwagon. IIRC there were complaints about that.

    Now they're back to 9mm's which with today's technology I agree with. All test I read about say it does just as well as the .40 S&W.

    Portland P.D. got away from .40 Glocks to 9mm Glock 17's years ago. And recently my local Sheriff's dept. went away from .40's and now allow .45 and for small hands 9mm for Glocks. I never liked shooting the .40's

    My original boring to some reply was about individuals that I respect in the field of ballistics. And because of these I stick with my + opinion of 9mm ammo

    Are we still friends ?

  10. #20
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    We're pals. My day for a 9 will come but I'm holding off just as long as I can shoot a 45 without crying in pain.

    Actually the complaints were about the 10mm, in answer to that in addition to tearing up guns not yet designed to handle the 10 the girlymanned it down to 40's. I never cared for the 40 myself. They are ok in full size guns but not in compacts.

    I have a K40, too much flip for carry.
    In Memory of Paul "Dietrich" Stines.
    Dad: Say something nice to your cousin Shirley
    Dietrich: For a fat girl you sure don't sweat much.
    Cue sound of Head slap.

    RIP Muggsy & TMan

    "If you are a warrior legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that JOCKO will not come today."

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