DocGKR - Ballistics Expert

[jg rider]

I guess the love affair with 9mm still goes on.
Remember the 1997 North Hollywood shoot out. All LAPD had was Bereta 92's in 9mm or .40's and shotguns. Remember? They had to go to a gun store to stock up on better armament, until swat showed up.

I don't think there as anything LAPD could have done better with their side arms and shotguns

After that LAPD allowed .45's but still allowed the 9mm's

According to LAPD’s website, here is a complete list of the guns authorized for duty:

Beretta 92F/S
Beretta 8045
Smith & Wesson 3rd Generation models: 459, 5904, 5903, 659, 5906, 645, 4506, 4566, 4567, 5903 TSW, 5906 TSW, 4569 TSW, and 4566 TSW
Glock 17
Glock 19
Glock 22
Glock 23
Glock 21
As far as know then and maybe now they use Fed HST in .45's And Win 147 Ranger T series for 9mm

Here's a documentary with real footage of that shoot out. Damn ! I'm really enjoying posting vids now that I know how to do it. Thanks EdM

[berettabone]

Cool thread. It makes my head hurt tho. For now, I'm sticking with my .40. Old habits die hard.

That makes 2 of us................always .40, always will.

[jg rider]

That makes 2 of us................always .40, always will.

I respect your decision
But I know there's a lot of agencies going away from .40's.
And for us the quicker accurate recovery time for follow up shots is key.
I wish I could find a way to copy & paste some .pd files from what was then ATK, the parent company of Federal doing ballistic tests into b.g. at three different Sheriff's departments in Wash. Oregon & California for different ammo brands and calibers.

Since I don't know how I only have this. Again my apologizes to the mods

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/t...11&whichpage=1

[b4uqzme]

?..
And for us the quicker accurate recovery time for follow up shots is key...1

I can't really explain it but my follow ups are better with .40. So much so I choose it for IDPA. I think maybe that legendary "snappiness" snaps the muzzle back in line quickly too? All I know is it works for me.

[berettabone]

I would tend to agree with your statement. I try to explain it to my associates, but I'm not sure they are getting the concept. To make it easy, I just say that I think that the 9mm round is a bit lazy with normal loads. In contrast, I think the .40 round is more robust. That snap, recoil, flip, what ever you want to call it, actually helps me get back on target faster than other calibers. If you shoot/practice with the round exclusively, you get more accustomed to the flip, and turn it to your advantage. It's almost like you can(and I said almost) relax your grip and your arms, and let the flip do all of the work. The firearm just comes back down naturally. It's a very difficult thing to explain, but when I go shooting, it's a bit of 9mm, but mostly .40 cal. I don't know if it matters, but I shoot .40 cal out of compact firearms only. I have no practical proof to any of this, it's just how it is with me. I know others who also prefer .40 over everything else. Whenever I get a feeling that .40 is a bit robust, I shoot heavy .357 loads out of my wife's SP101. .40 is a piece of cake.

[jg rider]

I would tend to agree with your statement. I try to explain it to my associates, but I'm not sure they are getting the concept. To make it easy, I just say that I think that the 9mm round is a bit lazy with normal loads. In contrast, I think the .40 round is more robust. That snap, recoil, flip, what ever you want to call it, actually helps me get back on target faster than other calibers. If you shoot/practice with the round exclusively, you get more accustomed to the flip, and turn it to your advantage. It's almost like you can(and I said almost) relax your grip and your arms, and let the flip do all of the work. The firearm just comes back down naturally. It's a very difficult thing to explain, but when I go shooting, it's a bit of 9mm, but mostly .40 cal. I don't know if it matters, but I shoot .40 cal out of compact firearms only. I have no practical proof to any of this, it's just how it is with me. I know others who also prefer .40 over everything else. Whenever I get a feeling that .40 is a bit robust, I shoot heavy .357 loads out of my wife's SP101. .40 is a piece of cake.

I guess it's what you're use to, and what you own. I wouldn't want to go out and buy a new gun base on someone else's opinion.

Like bruqzme, the wife and I shot IDPA matches, and before that IPSC in the late 70's, then UPSA with major powered 1911 .45's. We got out of that when the gamesmanship started. We tried IDPA, me with a .45, and her with a borrowed .40. She didn't like the snap, and I had to agree. She preferred the push of a .45.
Then I had to have my knee replaced, so no more running and jumping. We only compete Steel Challenge matches. Me with a light loaded .45, her with a Glock 17 or her .45.

I all my years of shooting I, as others have, come to my own observations / conclusions. I can take two identical set up .45 1911's, same load, one mine and a borrowed one, and draw and shoot double taps or Bill Drills. With my gun I can do .18- .20 splits with all A zone hits. With the borrowed gun the times are slower and some of the hits are B zone.
The only difference between pistols is that mine has a 20 lpi checkered front and back strap. So I tend to use a more relaxed grip. With the smooth front and serrated rear back strap borrowed 1911 the gun would slip in my hands.

I even tried this with my checkered gun against wife's stippled one. I still lost some control





When I tried the same drills with a .40, I was all over the place. Grip and muscle memory went all to hell.

But that's playing games, although there is a bit of adrenaline flowing. We practice a lot for real world encounters. With the biggest fear being of missing the subject and hitting an innocent bystander

Looking at ballistic results of 147 9mm vs. 180 .40, IMO there doesn't seem to be much difference in penetration / expansion

So for us the 9mm is the more controllable round for follow up shots out of our Kahrs

Check out my above vid and link, you'll see very little muzzle flip. Those are all spinal column hits with no misses with Kahr K9's.





Again these are my opinions and observations.
Thanx for reading this.

[ct9kahrtoter]

I would tend to agree with your statement. I try to explain it to my associates, but I'm not sure they are getting the concept. To make it easy, I just say that I think that the 9mm round is a bit lazy with normal loads. In contrast, I think the .40 round is more robust. That snap, recoil, flip, what ever you want to call it, actually helps me get back on target faster than other calibers. If you shoot/practice with the round exclusively, you get more accustomed to the flip, and turn it to your advantage. It's almost like you can(and I said almost) relax your grip and your arms, and let the flip do all of the work. The firearm just comes back down naturally. It's a very difficult thing to explain, but when I go shooting, it's a bit of 9mm, but mostly .40 cal. I don't know if it matters, but I shoot .40 cal out of compact firearms only. I have no practical proof to any of this, it's just how it is with me. I know others who also prefer .40 over everything else. Whenever I get a feeling that .40 is a bit robust, I shoot heavy .357 loads out of my wife's SP101. .40 is a piece of cake.

Is it like that with the 10mm, for you that is? I shot a friends 10mm Glock, and loved it.

[berettabone]

Is it like that with the 10mm, for you that is? I shot a friends 10mm Glock, and loved it.

A friend of mine has a Gluck 20. Although I don't like the firearm in general, 10mm is fun to shoot, and really doesn't seem like that much recoil to me. Not much more than .40 cal........357 out of my wife's firearm seems like a lot more.