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Thread: Chambering the first round, a slingshot modification

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Please show how to fix, having this problem with my mag.
    Modification detailed in post #12 Page 2 of this thread

    ...and is refined throughout the rest of the thread
    just sayin'
    I apologize if my post contains the same or similar information as someone who has posted before me.


  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by gb6491 View Post
    OK folks, here's how I did it (it's not a "how to do it", so proceed with caution and at your own risk if decide to attempt something similar)
    Note!: While I'm very pleased with the results of these mods, some folks have tried modifying the follower (though not exactly as I did) and not had the same results (to varying degrees). It could be that I just encountered a "perfect storm" with this mod and my particular gun. If you attempt something similar please keep this in mind and be sure to read their posts.

    First off I want to give some credit where it is due. Iím sure many here have seen this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPa3MtWkias
    Basically, the maker of it suggests the use of a ProMag magazine to facilitate loading the first round from a magazine.

    I finally acquired a ProMag (thanks Jim) for a little hands on research. ProMag has something of a less than stellar reputation on the internet. Iím not going to try and change that because, after seeing this magazine, I believe itís warranted. I do need to mention that this magazine was used, so read the following with that in mind. My ProMag is a ten round magazine; I found the spring is totally inadequate for that configuration. To compound this, the follower is rough and oversize. The magazine would only feed two rounds before a nose dive stoppage on the third round. However, it did feed the first round easily; now is that because of the loose spring tension (my Kahr will usually feed without issue from a downloaded magazine) or something else. After a little comparison, I decided to eliminate the magazine tube from the equation and opted to try the ProMag follower in a Kahr magazine. My first thought here was use the Kahr spring, but it will not work with the follower unless the follower is modified to accept it. Speaking of modifications, the follower needs to sanded on it sides and rear to function without binding in the Kahr tube. I tried installing the follower with the ProMag spring and was able to fit it all in the Kahr magazine tube. This combination allowed for a capacity of 7 rounds (just like a complete Kahr unit). It also put the rounds under much more spring tension. Bench testing confirmed that the top round still fed easily and that the follower would lock the slide back. Testing in the field, the magazine functioned without issue. If the ProMag spring will hold up, I believe this is a viable modification as is.

    Here's the ProMag follower/spring in a Kahr tube at work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYYZrSqGTdk

    Iím not inclined to trust that spring; beside that, Iím not sure where to find a replacement if need should arise.
    As it did put comparable (to an OEM magazine) pressure on the top round, I decided that the follower is the reason this all works. Now, I probably could modify the follower to work with the Kahr spring and be done with it, but after some study thought I could modify the Kahr follower to work and eliminate the need to buy extra parts.

    What I did to the Kahr follower requires a pencil and some sand paper.

    There is a transition point on the Kahr follower where the front portion of the feed surface slopes downward from the rear section. I decided this needs to be reduced and moved forward. I did this by wrapping the pencil in sandpaper and sanding along the rear plane of the follower maintaining it original angle. This did not totally solve the feeding issue, but perhaps it might if you took it further than I did. Then again, you risk sanding through the top of the follower. Next, I sanded the top of the follower, reducing the two ridges there. I did this by laying the sandpaper on a flat surface and sanding the top by moving the follower (again maintaining the existing angle). Now weíre cooking! Bench testing results were great as the top round feeds much easier than the stock configuration and there is no change to how the slide locks back. My previous video shows how it works, but here's another where I somewhat ride the slide home:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogM036r016M

    How to sand:

    How much to sand with the pencil backed sandpaper:

    How much to sand using a flat surface (just under .06" on the calipers. I suggest repeated testing as material is removed to preclude manufacturing tolerances causing any issues) :

    Finished:

    For comparison:


    Update - I had an interesting development:
    "... I had both mags apart yesterday and upon reassembly, both required brisk manipulation to feed hollow point (no more riding the slide). I was dumbfounded by this development, but figured it had to be something I had done. A quick checked showed that everything looked good (parts were clean and installed correctly with the springs properly orientated). I decided to flip ends of the springs and was back in business after doing this. While this worked, I've no clue why other than there is the slightest difference between ends of the springs (and on both springs). The end that seems to have a less steep angle on the last coil needed to be at the follower. I'm going to follow this up when the new springs arrive."

    So for now, I'm pleased with my modified mags, but want to do more testing. (as of 5-27, make that "very pleased" )
    Regards,
    Greg
    Gosh, there are so many mag modifications on this site I am disoriented as to what to do, if anything, and why do anything at all! Sorry, but that is my take on all this, but I appreciate your posts re solutions but confused by them a bit.

    At the outset, I have no problem or concern with following the manual by using the slide stop to chamber the first round.

    I basically understand what you did in post #11, above, but more curious about the latter sanding of the Kahr followers, so please ignore ProMag mix n match, etc.

    By sanding down the top of the follower on the Kahr mags, what does it accomplish? I see no reference other what is contained in the post #1 of this thread- to slingshot the firearm and presumably not be as concerned about failure to go into battery.

    Is there MORE than that as a result? Will rounds more reliably FEED into the weapon, and less likely nose-dive, too?

    I have a new PM9 with new mags and tried Jocko's prep test of the 'stripped magazine in the gun' to see if the follower and spring would encounter resistance when thereafter inserted up the mag...I could not sand the right SIDE of the follower to accomplish this feat, though it was supposed to be easy. I must be doing something wrong and I am more concerned about the gun hanging up as rounds diminish and the follower gets 'caught' by the mag catch, the solution to which I apparently have failed.

    Then this different modification came up. A different issue, granted, but I am simply beside myself with all this...what to do, and why?

  3. #183
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    I wouldn't do anything unless your gun doesn't function in some way that you want it to. Shoot it and enjoy it!
    Aftermarket accessories for Kahr Pistols at https://lakelinellc.com/
    There are always more in the pipeline...

  4. #184
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    Alfonse- Good advice. That's what I am going to do.

    It's a 'given' that 200 rounds is for break-in and mating of parts, and mating of shooter with firearm.

    I never did any mag modifications to the CW9 that I had for 5 years. Indeed, I did have jamming problems with the CW9 8-rounder, but not really with the 7-rd mag.

    Perhaps by merely shooting the new PM9 the probable hangup of follower encountering resistance by the mag catch will work itself out through 'wearing of the parts', reducing friction.

    I am a bit disappointed that I could not rectify the anticipated problem by following Jocko's last instruction re magazine mods in the 'Proper prep of a new Kahr' but that's the way it goes sometimes:

    "MAGAZINE FIX: some have reported that their 2nd or 3rd round tends to nose dive in their kahrs. Here is what is happeing, as the magazine follower is moving upward when it hits that area where about round 2 or 3 is still in the magazine, that follower is now in that magazine slot hole where the magazine button locks into it. That magazine button is actually stopping that follower from sliding past it without any hindrance. Now I can tell you the fix but if you will just go to the sticky by GB6491 on CW fixes, and scroll down, u will see in with a great photo tutorial how to fix this issues. It is a peace of cake. A quick test to see if u have this issue, is unload the magazine, take the floor plate off the magazine and pull the spring and follower out of the magazine. Now insert the empty magazine in the gun until it locks in place. Now with the spring still under the follower insert it slowly in the magazine upward and feel for a stoppage before the follower gets to the top of the magazine. If u feel stoppage, then go to GB 6491 sticky and see how easy this fix is. OR pull the follower out and sand the right side of the follower back alittle where it comes into view in that magazine slot opening, smooth it with 600+ grit paper and retest, It will not take much to get clearance.. I would even recommend one to pre-test this out before going to the range. will take 5 minutes to test out. Get ur gun prepped right and all the little tid bits of information that this forum can supply before that first range trip and it will be a big success... This magazine fix is usually the culprit in 90% of all NOSEDIVE ISSUES."


    Thanks.

    Update: Maybe I msunderstood where to sand it. Now I am thinking that it's really the front part of the right side of the follower that should have been sanded down. That is the part of the follower that shows in the magazine slot opening located on the side of the magazine tube, more or less AS STATED by Jocko. I'm going to try it. I originally sanded the right side of the follower from about midpoint on to the rear. Duh! Now I realize its really the side of the right 'leg' that drops down!!!
    Last edited by kahrinca; 08-13-2015 at 01:41 PM.

  5. #185
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    The gun has yet to be fired.

    Difficulty solved. Sand the area on front right side of the follower, e.g., the 'leg' that drops down. Actually sanding the edge of the leg, perhaps a bit above it as well.

    Only takes a minute or two or a few minutes as stated. I used 500 grit because I did not have 600.

    Worked well with my 7-rd extended magazine for the PM9. Now I've done it on the followers for the 6-rd magazines, which took me longer going back and forth to check in seated tube, no idea why, don't care.

    Anyway, that's at least one potential problem solved- the follower should not hang-up on the mag catch during the last rounds.

    200 round break-in would likely resolve this on its own, but who needs those type of jams, anyway? I certainly can do without them if I can help n*i*p* them in the bud.

    Thanks, jocko and Kahrtalk! Much appreciated!
    Last edited by kahrinca; 08-13-2015 at 01:12 AM.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by kahrinca View Post
    Gosh, there are so many mag modifications on this site I am disoriented as to what to do, if anything, and why do anything at all! Sorry, but that is my take on all this, but I appreciate your posts re solutions but confused by them a bit.

    At the outset, I have no problem or concern with following the manual by using the slide stop to chamber the first round.

    I basically understand what you did in post #11, above, but more curious about the latter sanding of the Kahr followers, so please ignore ProMag mix n match, etc.

    By sanding down the top of the follower on the Kahr mags, what does it accomplish? I see no reference other what is contained in the post #1 of this thread- to slingshot the firearm and presumably not be as concerned about failure to go into battery.

    Is there MORE than that as a result? Will rounds more reliably FEED into the weapon, and less likely nose-dive, too?

    I have a new PM9 with new mags and tried Jocko's prep test of the 'stripped magazine in the gun' to see if the follower and spring would encounter resistance when thereafter inserted up the mag...I could not sand the right SIDE of the follower to accomplish this feat, though it was supposed to be easy. I must be doing something wrong and I am more concerned about the gun hanging up as rounds diminish and the follower gets 'caught' by the mag catch, the solution to which I apparently have failed.

    Then this different modification came up. A different issue, granted, but I am simply beside myself with all this...what to do, and why?
    I found that this mod made chambering the first round by the slingshot method less dependent upon technique...that is I could chamber rounds via slingshot in my CW9 prior to the mod, but it was very technique dependent (read that as "must be done properly"), the mod allows me to chamber the round with less than perfect technique:

    I've not had any feed issues with the modified followers. Still, I advise that you follow Alfonse's advice (I wouldn't do anything unless your gun doesn't function in some way that you want it to. Shoot it and enjoy it!).
    Regards,
    Greg

    FWIW, the mod Jocko referenced is detailed here: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...5667#post15667
    [<a href=http://i43.tinypic.com/2n7fnux.gif target=_blank>http://i43.tinypic.com/2n7fnux.gif</a>

  7. #187
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    Or, you could get Alfonse's metal follower for $20 and not worry about it. Problem solved.

  8. #188
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    Default Title portion of an individual post

    Greg-

    Thanks for response.

    I will forego this 'slingshot' related mod because it is not important (to me) that I slingshot first round into the chamber.

    Moreover, from my own prior experience owning a CW9 and from reading that of others, these Kahrs slingshot just fine later on and some time after break-in. If I wanted to carry Condition 3 the fix would be important to me, or if I were more concerned about jams occurring in a gunfight or at the range.
    ----------------------------------------------
    Moreover, the 'MAGAZINE FIX' referenced in Jocko's 'proper prep of a new Kahr' might note that it is the lower portion of post #2 in the link that you provided at very end of your post #186 above (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...5667#post15667), that contains the information about trimming the side of the follower so that the follower does not get hung-up or delayed by the mag catch in its progression up the mag tube .

    Frankly, that post #2 should have a title and that should be amended. You have some great stuff there but I gleaned over it and I'll tell you why that occurred.

    At the outset, post references the mag dropping problem, not the follower hanging up on the mag catch. This latter issue is of importance to those who want to solve the hangup problem referenced in the MAGAZINE FIX in 'proper prep of a new Kahr' by jocko. One has to scroll down in that post #2 in your thread to get that information or to even identify the issue and I spent most of my time going from Jocko's post in 'proper prep' to posts #11 and #12 elsewhere.

    Also, the title of the thread references CW45 problems and that may throw some people off the track.

    I guess that my suggestion would be the following: these fixes could be better titled and organized so that newbies will not be lost in trying to find solutions. Moreover, there seems to be a lot of discussion in these fix threads/posts postulating why these difficulties occur. And several different proposed modifications for differing problems may all be contained within one post. And that's fine so long as there's an appropriate title recited in the 'Title' portion above the post so one knows what is contained within these somewhat lengthy posts. The posts, WADR, need to be further edited re title of the post and discussion therein.

    Perhaps restructuring these individual posts into 'problem', 'diagnosis' and 'solution' (or 'Recommended Action') as separate headings within each post will make it easier to read.

    Just my opinion, sorry, but I personally have difficulty wading through these posts.

    Notwithstanding, thank you for your great contributions here!
    Last edited by kahrinca; 08-13-2015 at 12:45 PM.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by kahrinca View Post
    Greg-

    Thanks for response.

    I will forego this 'slingshot' related mod because it is not important (to me) that I slingshot first round into the chamber.

    Moreover, from my own prior experience owning a CW9 and from reading that of others, these Kahrs slingshot just fine later on and some time after break-in. If I wanted to carry Condition 3 the fix would be important to me, or if I were more concerned about jams occurring in a gunfight or at the range.
    ----------------------------------------------
    Moreover, the 'MAGAZINE FIX' referenced in Jocko's 'proper prep of a new Kahr' might note that it is the lower portion of post #2 in the link that you provided at very end of your post #186 above (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...5667#post15667), that contains the information about trimming the side of the follower so that the follower does not get hung-up or delayed in its progression up the mag tube .

    Frankly, that post #2 should have a title and that should be amended. You have some great stuff there but I gleaned over it and I'll tell you why that occurred. At the outset, post references the mag dropping problem, not the follower hanging up on the mag catch. This latter issue is of importance to those who want to solve the hangup problem referenced in the MAGAZINE FIX in 'proper prep of a new Kahr' by jocko. One has to scroll down in that post #2 in your thread to get that information or to even identify the issue and I spent most of my time going from Jocko's post in 'proper prep' to posts #11 and #12 elsewhere.

    Also, the title of the thread references CW45 problems and that may throw some people off the track.

    I guess that my suggestion would be the following: these fixes could be better titled and organized so that newbies will not be lost in trying to find solutions. Moreover, there seems to be a lot of discussion in these fix threads/posts postulating why these difficulties occur. And several different proposed modifications for differing problems may all be contained within one post. And that's fine so long as there's an appropriate title recited in the 'Title' portion above the post so one knows what is contained within these somewhat lengthy posts. The posts, WADR, need to be further edited re title of the post and discussion therein.

    Perhaps restructuring these individual posts into 'diagnosis' and 'solution' (or 'Recomended Action') as separate headings within each post will make it easier to read.

    Just my opinion., sorry, but I personally have difficulty wading through these posts.

    Notwithstanding, thank you for your great contributions here!
    I agree that thread could use some clean up (and have some stuff added). I've pondered about it some...just haven't got around to doing it.
    It's titled that way because I only had the CW45 when I started it and didn't want to talk out of school about models I didn't have.
    The info about the follower would probably be better served with a post/thread of it's own. It was originally something I posted while chasing the magazine drops, but later it solved some nose dives issues for other folks.
    Thanks for the suggestions.
    Regards,
    Greg
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  10. #190
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    Default KAHR FAQ for those who don't want to do modifications and wish to carry Condition 3

    FWIW- Found this in the FAQ section on the Kahr website.

    "
    • Q. My firearm fails to chamber the first round when I pull back the slide and release it. What is wrong?

      A.
      It is likely you are either failing to pull the slide fully back or you are riding the slide as you release it. We recommend that you lock back the slide, insert the magazine, and release the slide with the slide stop. This will require that you carry a load in the chamber for self defense purposes. However, the passive safety system will prevent the pistol from firing unless the trigger is pulled, even if the gun is dropped...
    • If you would prefer not to carry a round in the chamber, you may remove a round from the magazine. This alters the angle of the bullet and will allow it to chamber even if you ride the slide. " [Emphasis added].

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