Self Defense Ammo for CM9

[Bill K]

I know there are all kinds of thoughts on SD ammo, but wanted to see if there is any that are preferred or feed perfect in the CM9? I recall in some previous guns I've owned I purchased short barrel versions of Speer Gold Dot ammo. Has anyone put A LOT of SD ammo down the pipe of their CM9? I am using Speer Lawman 115gr FMJ range ammo. I would tend to just go with hollowpoint versions of the Speer Gold Dot in the same 115gr, but I know they have hollowpoint 124gr, FMJ 147gr, and 124gr +P (among others). I am just partial to Speer as it has always worked well in my guns.

BUT- I just read some great stuff on the Black Hills Ammo 115gr JHP +P. I know NOTHING about Black Hills Ammo. Thoughts? Comments?

I've shot BH 124 +P from my Glock 26 for years. Shot well out of my PM9 but now carry BH 115 EXP for the kahr - like a previous poster mentioned. Used to have the terminal ballistics stats for both rounds into bare gelatin, do remember both bullets performing decently. Believe the 124 is an XTP bullet and the 115 a Winchester bullet of some sort.

Please post the link to the review of BH ammo mentioned in your post.

Thanks...

[aray]

Sorry, I originally posted this in the wrong thread.
Do any of you go for the Short Barrel version of the Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P ? Seems custom designed for the shorter barrel Kahrs but not sure how it performs in a longer barrel. Last question before we break out into a full fledged ammo battle, it is difficult to find info on just JHP (jacketed hollowpoint) rounds. Most vids always show the +P versions. any major difference in going with just a JHP round for SD versus the +P. I checked the Speer website and there is no muzzle velocity difference between the 124gr JHP and the 124gr JHP Short Barrel +P.

I just shot two boxes of the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. in both standard pressure and +P Short Barrel version. See: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8621

I did not attempt to recover the bullets in water jugs or jell like so many others do; those videos are all out on the internet. But I can say that in my CW9 both versions fed and fired with no problems. As I said in my review the big difference between the two is that to get the velocity up in the shorter barrels Speer increased the pressure. That gives you more power but at the expense of recoil and bang, all pretty much as you'd expect in a +P load. But reliablity was excellent for either version.

[les strat]

I've tried a bunch of the more common choices and finally ended up finding one I like, Winchester white box 147 grain JHP. It shoots and cycles very well and I don't experience the nose dive when hand racking the slide.

As an added bonus, it's about $20 for 50 rounds.

I just thought you might want to know that this is not really a good SD ammo. It does not expand at all and is pretty much like shooting FMJ. Just letting you know for your own safety.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptdL8...65F7C7FB4B4898

[Thunder71]

Thanks for that link. I guess it depends on what you consider good SD ammo, for me it's one that feeds consistently, this is the only ammo I've tried that has never nose-dived.

Also, living in Minnesota I'm not sure I want my ammo to expand in denim (think thick jacket in the winter).

[Michael W.]

I know there are all kinds of thoughts on SD ammo, but wanted to see if there is any that are preferred or feed perfect in the CM9? I recall in some previous guns I've owned I purchased short barrel versions of Speer Gold Dot ammo. Has anyone put A LOT of SD ammo down the pipe of their CM9? I am using Speer Lawman 115gr FMJ range ammo. I would tend to just go with hollowpoint versions of the Speer Gold Dot in the same 115gr, but I know they have hollowpoint 124gr, FMJ 147gr, and 124gr +P (among others). I am just partial to Speer as it has always worked well in my guns.

BUT- I just read some great stuff on the Black Hills Ammo 115gr JHP +P. I know NOTHING about Black Hills Ammo. Thoughts? Comments?

The Short Barrel version of the Gold Dots are designed to expand
at lower velocities, thus the short barrel designation. The SB's
are notable different in construction than the regular Gold Dots.
In some calibers they have had a very good rep, most notable
the 135gr 38 Special +P.

There are 2 schools of thought on trying to over come the loss
of velocity in short barrel guns. One is to go with +P or +P+
rounds to make up for the velocity loss. I used to think this
way.

The other school of thought and the one that I have gravitated towards
as it makes sense ballistically and also that it has been confirmed by a
Winchester bullet engineer, that being that slower heavier bullets lose less
velocity out of short barrel guns than their faster counterparts. The reason
is that due to the slower velocity there is more "dwell time" for the bullet
in the barrel and thus more efficient powder burn. The faster bullets exit
so fast that a large part of the powder burn happens after the bullet is out
of the barrel and thus is wasted.

Look at this Chrono chart (Belongs to "Molon" on the M4Carbine forum)



Note that the 147 gr round suffers the least velocity loss.

The second consideration that bears mentioning is that the 147 standard
pressure rounds of any given top shelf defensive ammo will have lower
recoil, muzzle rise, muzzle blast than it's lighter +P variants.
Thus, faster shot recovery, and reduced potential after effects of the
muzzle blast.

The last thing I'd mention is that 147gr bullet technology has come a long
way, not the least of which the huge performance gap between Federal's
Hydra Shok and it's HST. The former having a spotty record for the
past 20 years, the latter having a spectacular record across all calibers in
the few short years it's been around. The HST projectile does not rely on
velocity in order to expand. (Although velocity will play a part in the
degree of expansion). But rather it is engineered to expand based on the
design of the bullet.

This is somewhat true of the Ranger-T bullet evolution as well but there
are so many variants of the Talon, SXT, T rounds floating around out
there it's hard to keep them all straight.

However, note this quote from Paul Nowak from Winchester:

When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.

We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments.

Sincerely,

Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition

So take away what you will from all of this but for the past
couple of years I've settled on the Federal 147 HST standard pressure
for all my short barrel 9's. (Glock 26 and PM9)

While in my G19 I continue to carry the Ranger 127gr +P+.

Caveat to all this is that reliability trumps all. If your gun won't
feed your chosen load then it's not going to do you any good.

Fortunately, my PM9 and CM9 both feed everything
I give it. Neither has ever jammed on any hollowpoint I've
tried.

Michael-

[les strat]

Great post Michael!

[Rubb]

I just thought you might want to know that this is not really a good SD ammo. It does not expand at all and is pretty much like shooting FMJ. Just letting you know for your own safety.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptdL8...65F7C7FB4B4898

The WWB 147 gr. JHP is my go to back up.
I’ve seen conflicting reports but it did well in my own test.
Here’s another WWB test and a few pics of my own.
I tried other HP’s as my main but, always seem to come back to Gold Dot.
You just can’t go wrong with GD’s IMO
RSCN4909.jpg

RSCN4904.jpg

DSCN3198.jpg

[Markis82]

Also, living in Minnesota I'm not sure I want my ammo to expand in denim (think thick jacket in the winter).

If thick clothing is your concern I'd consider Cor-Bon Pow'R Ball or Hornady Critical Defense ammo.

I just thought you might want to know that this is not really a good SD ammo. It does not expand at all and is pretty much like shooting FMJ. Just letting you know for your own safety.

+1 I'd definitely stick with high quality ammo for self defense. There are many different quality brands. I'm sure you can find one that your gun runs reliably. I'd only use Winchester White Box JHP or FMJ for the range!! Just my $0.02.

[PCollen]

Speer Gold Dot 124g +p JHP. Have about 75 rounds through my CM9 with 0 problems.

Good to read this, casue I got a good deal on a boat-load of GD 124 +P for my home defense XD9...more than I'll probably shoot in a lifetime. NOw that I have a CM9 on the way, it has no choice but to run the GD 124 +P .

[PCollen]

The Short Barrel version of the Gold Dots are designed to expand
at lower velocities, thus the short barrel designation. The SB's
are notable different in construction than the regular Gold Dots.
In some calibers they have had a very good rep, most notable
the 135gr 38 Special +P.

There are 2 schools of thought on trying to over come the loss
of velocity in short barrel guns. One is to go with +P or +P+
rounds to make up for the velocity loss. I used to think this
way.

The other school of thought and the one that I have gravitated towards
as it makes sense ballistically and also that it has been confirmed by a
Winchester bullet engineer, that being that slower heavier bullets lose less
velocity out of short barrel guns than their faster counterparts. The reason
is that due to the slower velocity there is more "dwell time" for the bullet
in the barrel and thus more efficient powder burn. The faster bullets exit
so fast that a large part of the powder burn happens after the bullet is out
of the barrel and thus is wasted.

Look at this Chrono chart (Belongs to "Molon" on the M4Carbine forum)



Note that the 147 gr round suffers the least velocity loss.

The second consideration that bears mentioning is that the 147 standard
pressure rounds of any given top shelf defensive ammo will have lower
recoil, muzzle rise, muzzle blast than it's lighter +P variants.
Thus, faster shot recovery, and reduced potential after effects of the
muzzle blast.

The last thing I'd mention is that 147gr bullet technology has come a long
way, not the least of which the huge performance gap between Federal's
Hydra Shok and it's HST. The former having a spotty record for the
past 20 years, the latter having a spectacular record across all calibers in
the few short years it's been around. The HST projectile does not rely on
velocity in order to expand. (Although velocity will play a part in the
degree of expansion). But rather it is engineered to expand based on the
design of the bullet.

This is somewhat true of the Ranger-T bullet evolution as well but there
are so many variants of the Talon, SXT, T rounds floating around out
there it's hard to keep them all straight.

However, note this quote from Paul Nowak from Winchester:

So take away what you will from all of this but for the past
couple of years I've settled on the Federal 147 HST standard pressure
for all my short barrel 9's. (Glock 26 and PM9)

While in my G19 I continue to carry the Ranger 127gr +P+.

Caveat to all this is that reliability trumps all. If your gun won't
feed your chosen load then it's not going to do you any good.

Fortunately, my PM9 and CM9 both feed everything
I give it. Neither has ever jammed on any hollowpoint I've
tried.

Michael-

Does all this REALLY make any difference at distances of 3 to 15 feet. You're not going to get into a gun fight in a self-defense situation at 50 feet, or even 30 feet. It's gonna be close up and personal. It will be in a room in your house, not out in the back yard. Or maybe in your driveway when you are getting out of your car, or some whacked out tramp pulling a knife on you at a 7-11.