Techinical Discussion of Follower Mod

[OldLincoln]

Ever since sanding the follower became vogue people I respect praise the mod. I have tried my best to figure out how this mod can change the path of the 7th round above it.

I have even tried to model the change by applying a spacer under the nose of the 1st round sitting directly on the follower. I have tried even ridicules angles like with a 1/4" spacer I have to hold the bottom 6rds in place to keep them from standing up. Even with that, as soon as the top round is pushed against the mag lips the spaces return and sop do the feed angles.

So, finally I took it to the M1911.org Forum Magazine section. I asked the question and received some thoughtful replies that only confirm my experiments. I might try it myself except my mags feed perfect so I wouldn't know if it does work or not unless I screwed something up.

So, I ask the acknowledged experts here who find it effective to discuss WHY/HOW it works.

BTW: They discuss 1911 mags but the mechanics should apply to either.

[Scoundrel]

Let's clarify which follower mod you are talking about.

A. The "nosedive mod" removes material from one corner of the follower where the mag release catch is, to prevent it from hanging up on the catch and not providing enough pressure to push the round up.
B. The "slingshot mod" changes the angle of the follower, to help with being able to "slingshot" or rack the slide by hand without locking it all of the way back and using the slide lock lever to release it.

I assume you're talking about the "slingshot mod" and not the "nosedive mod".

OK, my input is not going to be very technical, which is unusual for me, but here it goes:

1. I did the mod and it did make the thing very easy to rack. In fact, I can ride the slide back down slowly (and quietly), and it will still chamber the round smoothly. So it works.

2. I suspect that while it may not change the angle of the round, it does change where the pressure is applied to the round, effectively moving the "fulcrum" or pivot point, which makes all the difference on how easily the round will change angle on its way out of the magazine.

I wish I had proof of this or a way to model it with a computer or a clear lexan gun or something, but this is the best I can do.

Next!

[OldLincoln]

Originally Posted by Scoundrel

1. I did the mod and it did make the thing very easy to rack. In fact, I can ride the slide back down slowly (and quietly), and it will still chamber the round smoothly. So it works.

2. I suspect that while it may not change the angle of the round, it does change where the pressure is applied to the round, effectively moving the "fulcrum" or pivot point, which makes all the difference on how easily the round will change angle on its way out of the magazine.

I wish I had proof of this or a way to model it with a computer or a clear lexan gun or something, but this is the best I can do.

Next!

Okay.... by lengthening the follower's touch on the bottom round it can change how it leaves the mag lips. Perhaps instead of releasing it when the balance point hits the sloped ramp it holds it a tad longer. In other words it doesn't squirt it out like a watermelon seed but slips it out in a more controlled path. I can see the possibility of that for bottom round that sits on the follower, but not the ones up the line.

One pic in that thread shows the 1911 mag with 4 rounds that lay flat. According to my understanding that is because the rounds remain in contact throughout their length bottom to top.

They say the slope of a full mag means the top round hangs out in front of the support from the lower rounds. Predictably, then if a mag were truly vertical there would be no gaps under the nose and all would feed without a nosedive.

[Scoundrel]

Originally Posted by OldLincoln

Okay.... by lengthening the follower's touch on the bottom round it can change how it leaves the mag lips. Perhaps instead of releasing it when the balance point hits the sloped ramp it holds it a tad longer. In other words it doesn't squirt it out like a watermelon seed but slips it out in a more controlled path. I can see the possibility of that for bottom round that sits on the follower, but not the ones up the line.

OK, I'm not an engineer or anything, but look at the attached image. The down arrows indicate force being applied (not the same place force is applied in magazines, mind you, this is only an analogy). Do you think that changing the position of the fulcrum (represented by the circle) would only affect the bottom rectangle, or the whole stack?

BTW, if there ARE any engineers out there, and I am wrong, PLEASE enlighten us. I'm willing to be wrong.

[JFootin]

Good illustration, Scoundrel. Moving the fulcrum point affects all of the rounds. Or, so my engineer's mind tells me.

[Replay13]

Problem, rounds nose diving when feeding by hand and also firing.

The only thing if your drawing is missing is the gap between the bullets, but you do have a good point. Also it does seems to make a difference if the mag spring is put in wrong with the pressure toward the back of the follower.

Starting with the known facts.
1. The follower only supports the bottom round in the stack.
2. There is increasing gap between the bullets as more is added.
3. The mag lips sets the angle of the round being loaded.
4. The slide pushes forward on the top edge of the round being chambered.
5. The less rounds in a mag the easier it is to feed. Less gap and less spring.
6. The way the slide has to push on the top of the round when feeding caused the nose dive, and the less support on the bullet the worse the problem.

Ok the questions are how well is the bottom round supported and does changing the angle of the bottom round decrease the gap between the rounds. Depending on the type of the mod.

First mod, how well is the bottom round supported same angle but more contact? I know I can load a round in both of my mags and push down the front of the the round and it nose dives in the mag (the back of the round stay up to the top touching the feed lips) and if I push down on the back of the round, the whole round goes down.... So I don't think the stock follower supports the bottom round as well as it should. Maybe someone with a modded follower can put in there input?

Second mod, changing the angle of the follower. The more the angle of the follower the more the angle of the bottom round and it decreases the gap between the rounds. The rounds angle when feeding will still be supported by the mag lips. Reports say its working good. With my mags, the angle of the follower is the same as the angle the feed lips.

With my mags, I only have a problem slingshoting the first or second round. There is less spring pressure and less gap on the bottom rounds in the mag and they feed good. I don't have any modded followers, but I did put a temporary spacer on the front of the follower to change the angle of the bottom round and then I could slingshot the first round of a full mag. Also there was less gap between the top two rounds with a full mag.

Just my thoughts.
James

[Deano]

Originally Posted by Scoundrel

Let's clarify which follower mod you are talking about.

A. The "nosedive mod" removes material from one corner of the follower where the mag release catch is, to prevent it from hanging up on the catch and not providing enough pressure to push the round up.
B. The "slingshot mod" changes the angle of the follower, to help with being able to "slingshot" or rack the slide by hand without locking it all of the way back and using the slide lock lever to release it.

I assume you're talking about the "slingshot mod" and not the "nosedive mod".

OK, my input is not going to be very technical, which is unusual for me, but here it goes:

1. I did the mod and it did make the thing very easy to rack. In fact, I can ride the slide back down slowly (and quietly), and it will still chamber the round smoothly. So it works.

2. I suspect that while it may not change the angle of the round, it does change where the pressure is applied to the round, effectively moving the "fulcrum" or pivot point, which makes all the difference on how easily the round will change angle on its way out of the magazine.

I wish I had proof of this or a way to model it with a computer or a clear lexan gun or something, but this is the best I can do.

Next!

I agree with this. And by the way, the "slingshot mod" is what fixed my nosedive problem, not the "nosedive mod". The problem in my mind is the fulcrum in the middle of the follower. Moving this forward somehow must change the forces pushing up on the rounds in such a way that the nose stays up better. It makes sense to me, and I know it works from personal experience. My nosedive problem completely cleared up.

As a side note, I just installed wolff +5% springs to my 7 round mags, thinking that his may have been part of the problem. I have not gotten to the range to see if it helps, but if you listen to the experts on the other forum, it should make the problem worse, not better. I'll return with my findings once I've had a chance to test them out.

Also, interesting to me, is the fact that I emailed my findings to the v.p. of sales and marketing, as well as the regional sales rep for my region. I sent a detailed description of the problem, as well as links to the threads with photos of the mod. That was two weeks ago, and I haven't heard a peep from them. I suspect it was ignored. Fixing this problem with their mags would eliminate a lot of headaches for the tech support arm of the company. You would think they might care enough to look into it.

[kerby9mm]

Neither one of my mk's have this problem with the 6 or 7 round mags. It puzzles mg to hear that so many others do. There must be some overall solution its not magical its a machine.

[air8]

Tough crowd at that forum. Interesting data. I'm just here to hear the discussion.

[CJB]

My thoughts are with OL on this... but since my mags feed just fine, I didn't bring it up!