Lebman's .38 Super Machine Pistol

[Story]

Since I did the work in a posting elsewhere, I figure I'd share this with those who would appreciate the information.

This is the generally accepted '20 round magazine' Dillinger 1911A1
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-...r-38-Super.jpg
This is also supposed to be 'his'.
http://www.vincelewis.net/myimages57...-dillinger.jpg
Turns out that one is in .45ACP


Elsewhere on the interwebz, someone pulled the relevant comments about Dillinger's Super 38 machine pistol from articles in Man At Arms For The Gun Collector. From "The Pre-WWII Colt Super .38 Automatic", Volume 31 No.3:

The "Roaring Twenties" were partially symbolised by the Thompson submachine gun and the Colt automatic pistols, which were being used by mobsters from Chicago to New York. Recognizing the need for greater firepower, police departments in Burlington, Vermont, St Louis, Missouri and Escanaba, Michigan, started buying Colt Super 38 pistols. The ability to penetrate car bodies and bulletproof vests became important and did not go unnoticed by the infamous gangsters of the 1930s - John Dillinger, Baby Face Nelson, Homer Van Meter, and many others. Dillinger and Nelson had saddle maker and gunsmith Harold Lebman of San Antonio convert Colt pistols into fully automatic submachine guns complete with extended magazines and Thompson foregrips.

Colt's engineering department submitted similar design prototypes, in both .38 Super and .45ACP calibers, to the US Government for consideration as military weapons.

So apparently Baby Face Nelson had his own machine pistol, not just Dillinger. Also, the magazine has a picture of one of the Colt-made machine pistols. It has a detachable stock similar to the style used on the Artillery Luger, a fairly straight wooden foregrip and a simple compensator, and a very long magazine. Most interestingly, it has a change lever on the right hand rear of the slide.

Volume 31 No.4, letter to the editor:

This letter concerns your article in Vol. 31 No.3, 3009, pages 34-43...espescially the paragraph in the center of page 35. (The text in question noted that gangsters "Baby Face" Nelson and John Dillinger had gunsmith Harold Lebman convert their Colt Super 38 pistols into fully automatic submachine guns complete with extended magazines and Thompson foregrips - Editor)

My father was Hyman S. Lebman (his name was not Harold, as quoted in the article), and I worked with him from the time I was 10 years old (1937) until he developped Alzheimers in 1976. He passed away in 1990. He told me many stories about the customers who he later found out were John Dillinger and Baby Face Nelson. He thought they were charming, wealthy, oil men who were interested in guns, and even invited them to his house for his wife to make them dinner when I was about 3 or 4.

Our shop had a firing range in the basement, and when he was experimenting with a model 1911 on full automatic, the 3rd or 4th round went off directly over head, through the floor, and I was visiting above at the time. It scared him so much tha he invented and installed a compensator on the muzzle to control the recoil. At one time much later, when I was visiting Washington, DC, I made an appointment with the FBI, and they were happy to bring out their collection of my dad's guns for me to see.

Sincerely, Marvin Lebman

[Story]

All the famous bandits of the Depression years used high-tech weaponry. Nelson was no exception. The resident "gun nut" of the gang, he often acquired full auto weapons and customized rifles and pistols for other members as well as himself. He even had his own pet custom gunsmith, Hyman Lebman of San Antonio, Texas. Speaking freely to police after his arrest, Lebman said Nelson was extremely knowledgeable about firearms, and though he bought pocket pistols in caliber .25 and up, presumably as hideout guns, he didn't have much use for anything but a Colt .45 automatic for serious business.

Late in his career, "Baby Face" became enamored of the Colt .38 Super Auto. Introduced circa 1929 to give police a round that could shoot through auto bodies and primitive bulletproof vests, the Colt Super was surprisingly popular among federal agents of the period. Ironically, a larger proportion of .38 Supers seem to have been used by the more infamous bad guys than by the good. Homer Van Meter would die attempting to shoot police with one.

Though he and the gang used a wide variety of weapons, Nelson's favorites seem to have been the Thompson submachine gun (often with buttstock removed, for better concealment under a coat) and custom Lebman machine pistols made up of Colt Government Models in the two calibers of the time. Converted to full auto, these were fitted with Cutts compensators like a Thompson, and a Thompson vertical foregrip attached to the dust cover of the frame and abutting the trigger guard. Lebman also provided extended single stack magazines, which offered 18 rounds of .45 ACP or 22 rounds of .38 Super. (Girardin/Helmer, P.302) Nelson gave a Lebman/Colt machine pistol in .38 Super to Dillinger to celebrate a jailbreak.

Learning from a cop-killer: the lessons of "Baby Face" Nelson | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET


Lebman was also connected with the Monarch Gun Company in California - supposedly this "Steady Fire and Multi-Shot Riot and Anti-Bandit Gun" was originally designed for the LAPD for deployment from motorcycle sidecars, sported a Cutts style comp, and a cut down TSMG foregrip.

Anyone know/read anything more?

[Story]

For those comptemplating a semi-auto version of this, it's apparently a legal gray area.

Read SayUncle » Careful

and then check out the BATF text (once located at http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/041006-vert_grip.htm and now missing):

Quote:
U.S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives


Washington, DC 20226


Adding a Vertical Fore Grip to a Handgun

“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.

*
From another posting on the topic, a wiki article pointed to this case (now un-accessible):
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu...s_v_davis2.txt

The ATF lost the argument within that case that a pistol with such a grip was an AOW, and the court ruled they were only pistols.
The ATF however chose to drop those specific charges, which avoided setting precedent.
So it is as if that ruling never happened.

[Bawanna]

Hey thanks for your efforts posting this. I love this stuff. Glad I brought my Tommy back to work today so I can hold it and have warm historical thoughts. This is good stuff.

[Race Bannon]

Very interesting stuff, especially the letter from Lebman's son.

[johnh]

That is a very interesting post. I had heard years ago about criminals using full-auto 1911s in .38 Super during the era, but this is the first time I actually have seen a photo or any detailed information on the guns. I wonder how they carried them given the size of the magazine. Perhaps it was only used when they were in a static position or vehicle?

John

[Story]

Originally Posted by JohnH

I wonder how they carried them given the size of the magazine. Perhaps it was only used when they were in a static position or vehicle?

Barring the presence of primary sources, this is just conjecture on my part.

These were criminals' weapons : I imagine they were shoved in a large coat pocket or satchel or slung under a shoulder (like a stockless Thompson) until needed, then the overly-long magazine inserted.

There's nothing to have prevented the thugs from toting around the piece ready-to-fire, with just a seven round magazine inserted.

[Story]

Some version of a .45 Lebman machine pistol is mentioned on page 206 of The Union Station Massacre: The Original Sin of J. Edgar Hoover's FBI - recommended reading for those interested in period shootouts.

http://www.amazon.com/Union-Station-.../dp/0836227735

Also found this, on the Monarch Company's shoulder stock kit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsLYt-zdQso

[Story]

A select fire 1911, one of four registered that were made by "an armorer who had been in Korea".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebitGRonUDs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3UdbFTAEks&NR=1

For you 07 type guys, also found this -
Colt's research and development team of William L. Swartz and Horace J. Kennedy received U.S. patent number 2462505 for this invention.
http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=...6RS=PN/2462505