Draw versus Draw and Fire

[OldLincoln]

Just for me, if I had the mindset that if I draw the aggressor gets shot, I know I would hesitate on my draw until the last moment. I see the draw as one function the the shot another, much like law enforcement.

You see them draw and aim while screaming at the bad guy to get on the ground, etc. I'd rather draw and scream than draw and shoot, but that's just me. However, if the bad guy has a gun and points it my direction, like law enforcement I shoot. If he has a knife and continues toward me I shoot, just like law enforcement.

I can't help but believe law enforcement guidelines would make a reasonable defense to the DA for a justified shooting. Much stronger than telling the DA "If I draw I shoot, regardless of what the bad guy does."

[JFootin]

+1 on that^^^

[muggsy]

Originally Posted by chrish

I think I agree w/ you completely there. But in the instance in time that this all takes place, potentially just a few seconds. You could do that (draw), having already exposed your weapon, and in the split second decision making process of both you and the BG, he begins to turn as you draw. At this point, he's bugging out and you are standing there w/ a weapon pointed at him. I doubt you are going to fire at that point.

Everything happens FAST on both sides of this equation IMO. Just sayin'. That was my only point. I would expect that my 'warning' and my decision to actually draw would most likely be extremely close together. Like I said, a perfect world, which would allow me a bit of decision. If that time doesn't exist, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm in your camp on drawing and firing.

But I agree w/ the premise, my intention would be to shoot.

In the vain of the OP though, draw vs draw and shoot, I think exposing your weapon for the purposes of defining 'draw' are one and the same in the eyes of MOST brandishing laws.

You can discuss the law if it pleases you. I'm talking survival in the real world. You can't deal with the courts if you're dead. If the assailant is close enough to do me harm when he pulls up I'm still going to consider him a threat and a stationary target. If the assailant is looking for sympathy he'll find it in the dictionary located between the words excrement and syphilis. I believe in the words, "Don't tread on me."

[chrish]

+1 on OldLinclon's statement, thats EXACTLY what I'm talking about, good way to put it.

muggsy, i'll stand down on the law discussion. i'm not a lawyer and didnt mean offend you with regard to my opinion of your proposed action. i'll just agree to disagree on this one.

[AIRret]

Old Lincoln, I agree! That is the way I see it.

I have a question. If you show your gun but do not draw it (it stays in the holster) is that brandishing?

[ptoemmes]

Originally Posted by AIRret

...

I have a question. If you show your gun but do not draw it (it stays in the holster) is that brandishing?

I am the OP so thanks to all who have responded. I think THIS ^ is key and think it may need to be made a separate post even though it is likely to be different on a state-by-state basis. Go for it AIRret if you choose.

I have been remiss in not rereading Florida's statute as there have been some recent changes. In a quick search of the statute: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...0790/0790.html
I do not see the term brandishing mentioned or defined (may have missed it).

Perhaps this is what covers it:
"
790.001 Definitions.—As used in this chapter, except where the context otherwise requires:
...
(2) “Concealed firearm” means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.
(3)(a) “Concealed weapon” means any dirk, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.

...

790.053 Open carrying of weapons.—
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device. It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.
(2) A person may openly carry, for purposes of lawful self-defense:
(a) A self-defense chemical spray.
(b) A nonlethal stun gun or dart-firing stun gun or other nonlethal electric weapon or device that is designed solely for defensive purposes.
(3) Any person violating this section commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
History.—s. 1, ch. 87-537; s. 173, ch. 91-224; s. 3, ch. 97-72; s. 1205, ch. 97-102; s. 3, ch. 2006-298; s. 1, ch. 2011-145.

...

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
History.—s. 1, ch. 4532, 1897; GS 3272; RGS 5105; CGL 7207; s. 5, ch. 69-306; s. 743, ch. 71-136; s. 2, ch. 76-165; s. 174, ch. 91-224.
"

I see references that that the Florida law has been changed - perhaps recently - to exempt the accidental or unintentional display of a holstered firearm from being considered illegal. As the to the intentional "display" of a holstered firearm in an attempt to alter an encounter, I dunno yet.

All of this in the context of - in any given situation where me (or my loved ones) safety is in question and deciding the course of action in the next second or so - I will not be running Florida statutes though my mind.


Pete

[muggsy]

Section 790.10 is exactly how brandishing is defined by Ohio law.

[muggsy]

It takes about 2.5 seconds for an attacker to cover a distance of 21 feet, the distance that most of us practice our shooting from. Two and one half seconds is not a lot of time to deliberate the consequences of your actions, or in action. One and a half seconds is all you have to draw and fire. Shoot first and deliberate later. You can bet that your attacker isn't deliberating his actions when he's attacking you. I want to see all of you on this board for years to come. Survival is a mind set.

[OldLincoln]

790.10 is your friend in the case of somebody approaching with a knife or threatening manner. It is legal to draw your gun for self defense if you only do so in the reasonable fear of your life. Reasonable is what a reasonable person would do in your situation. The DA & jury decide on reasonable. I say pulling the gun to ward off a shooting is reasonable. Many disagree with me and that's fine as long as they make the conscious decision for themselves.

We all live with consequences of our decisions. When first starting to carry I spent many hours studying this very subject reading scenarios and deciding what I would do before reading other responses. I learned that responses will vary just as this thread but formed my thinking based on the consequences discussed.

I seriously considered giving it up as the opinion generally expressed by the law was either way your were screwed. If not by the DA then in civil court. However I have seen a shift in public opinion and expressions of law agencies since and I'm glad I stuck it out. But I will do my best to make sure I don't pull a stunt like playing police officer looking for trouble.

[muggsy]

I too, studied all of the legal ramifications. I decided that breathing was a far better option than not breathing. If you shoot first you will have plenty of time for remorse later. If you don't shoot there may not be a later. Criminal attackers have no remorse for those who they maim, or kill.