Magazine Disconnect Safties???

[dannyeller]

Except for putting certain degenerate traits on public display, I firmly believe in the "for each their own". But for the life of me I can't see the wisdom in the hatred for mag disconnect safeties. I was in the military for 25 years and in law enforcement for five and still would be in law enforcement if it were not for the 20 plus years of jumping out of airplanes (body parts no longer agree with fight'n drunks). This in addition to 20 some years of competitive shooting of some kind. In all that time almost ALL, I say again almost "ALL" accidental/negligent discharges (ADs/NDs) with some causing either life altering injuries and some deaths were the sole result of the shooter taking the magazine out of the pistol after racking the slide (or not racking the slide at all) and then either shooting themselves or someone else by accident. Even when no one was injured the ramifications were usually career altering to say the least. A simple mag disconnect safety would have prevented each and every one of them. Such things as Loaded Chamber Indicators (LCI) (an external extractor works as one anyway) and mandatory safeties on double action types of firearms are mandated by people who do not know what they are doing. But the mag safeties are a good thing. I would pay $50 to $75 right now to have one installed on all three of my Glocks and both of my Kahrs if they were available.

I never recommend semi-autos for use by women. Not that some can't use them to great effect but MOST women have trouble racking the slide. Especially .380s and smaller calibers, since most of them work on a blow back type action they have much heavier recoil springs than even a .45. They can do things like cocking the hammer if the pistol has one before trying the rack the slide but remember these things are to be used in a time of stress. At least if a woman or a weak wrist-ed male (could be due to an injury or age related illness and not the lack of testosterone) can make a semi-auto ready in a non-stressed environment and then just take out the magazine to render the gun safe. They could then just insert the mag to make the gun ready just as fast if not faster than racking a pump shotgun.

The only magazine disconnect I've ever had an issue with was on a Brit colleague's Highpower when we were working together in Iraq. That particular mag disconnect safety would prevent the magazine from falling out of the weapon during a quick reload and you had to stick your finger way up the magwell to push a protruding button before you could drop the hammer. Which was required as part of a weapons clearing procedure before entering certain areas.

The reasons given as justifications against mag disconnect safeties just do not make since to me. If I am holding someone at gunpoint (unless the slide is locked back) the last thing I'm going to do is a reload. Just don't see it... And the wisdom of being able to use the pistol as a magazineless single shot just does not make up for the overwhelming number of ADs and NDs that occur with semi-auto handguns, period. Each one of those ADs and NDs is just another arrow in the quiver of those socialist, Godless bastards that want to take our firearms away.

But if you have bought it then I have no problem with you disabling it for your use. But be warned... You have... say again.... YOU HAVE sharpened the very blade those socialist, Godless bastards mentioned earlier are gong to use to cut your heart out, even if your shooting incident is 100% justified.

[tv_racin_fan]

Negligent Discharges wont occur if you don't have a firearm, sir. I suggest you sell all of your firearms, that way the threat of a Negligent Discharge will be reduced.

[O'Dell]

I can't say that I disagree. I've had several pistols over the years with the disconnect safety, and the only one that I felt was a problem was on a Hi-Power. It can cause a problem on a Ruger P345 when dry-firing, but if you know this, don't dry fire w/o an empty mag in the gun. It's in the manual.

In 45 years of pistol shooting I've never had a ND, but my son did with my PM45. If that Kahr had had a mag disconnect safety it would not have happened. Fortunately, the only casualty was a wall light switch.

[RenegadeRebel]

I'm going to assume this post was in response to my thread earlier?

Well if it is, I have a rebuttal to make. First and foremost, I think you should have ended your post at "to each his own."

What you may find "necessary" or "safe," others may find a hassle, or even a down right burden and absolute risk.

Well it may be true that a mag disconnect could potentially prevent some types of ND's; I think the cons truly outweigh the pros. Like you said with your buddy's high power; sometimes the device WILL malfunction and cause the magazine to stick into the gun. This actually happened twice to me when I first took my gun out during the 200 round break in. The metal disconnect gets caught between the magazine body and the frame of the gun, and makes it very difficult to remove the magazine. Its also possible for the disconnect to be caught in such a way that it is still disengaged when it is trapped. That would have much more dire consequences then just a stuck magazine.

Can you imagine if either of those things happened in the middle of a gun fight? When mere seconds matter, it could surely mean the end of your life.

Point is, the more moving parts, the higher the propensity that mechanical failure will occur. I for one like simplicity in my guns. While it is true that a semi is complex in nature; there is still no need to further muddy the waters with superfluous devices.

Another negative against disconnects: They apply constant downward spring pressure on the magazine. If I needed to reload in a stress environment, its possible that the magazine wouldn't seat correctly and I could have a malfunction.

Your argument about women using a mag disconnect to their advantage sounds pretty good in theory; but loading a magazine is a fine motor skill just like cocking a slide, and in the heat of the moment, magazines can be fumbled, dropped, and inserted backwards just to name a few things that can go wrong. What happens if pretty Nancy, or frail Tim, drops the needed magazine under the bed when he tries to insert it from a deep sleep in the dark? What if they cant find it when they need it most?

An easier method would be to just leave the gun loaded with the hammer down. If its a striker fired handgun, then you can just leave it with the slide locked to the rear. Simply hitting the slide release when you hear the bump in the night is much easier than fumbling with a magazine in the dark.

While I agree with you that while holding someone at gunpoint would not be an opportune time to reload; being in the middle of a gun fight is certainly another case. If I have fired several shots, and know I am at the far tail end of my magazine, a tactical reload would be a smart choice if you have the chance. To me that is smarter then letting your gun run dry. If after I dropped my magazine, a threat presents itself, then I would need to deal with it accordingly. That would be impossible with a magazine disconnect in place.

Lastly, I'm a little confused about your last statement. "YOU HAVE sharpened the very blade those socialist, Godless bastards mentioned earlier are gong to use to cut your heart out."

What exactly do you mean by that? Are you saying it is certain I will have a ND now that I have removed my disconnect? Please explain.

[dannyeller]

Originally Posted by tv_racin_fan

Negligent Discharges wont occur if you don't have a firearm, sir. I suggest you sell all of your firearms, that way the threat of a Negligent Discharge will be reduced.

No I won't sell all my firearms SIR!

And after 25 years in the Army, five years as a Law Enforcement Officers and during my 20 something years of competitive shooting I have never had either an AD or ND. But I have witnessed them. And I have witnessed them on rare occasions done by people that were expert shooters and some from people that use a gun for their living. I still just do not think but know that magazine disconnect safeties would absolutely prevent many of those tragedies that the socialist, Godless anti-gun crowd will use to take our freedoms away.

So SIR, just put your head back in the sand and leave it there since you brought nothing intelligent to the discussion.

[dannyeller]

RenegadeRebel,

No I did not assume that you would have an AD or ND. My statement is based on fact that has been proven time after time. The mere fact that you have disable a safety devise even one as useless as a LCI (Again useless since external extractors serve as one anyway) you have opened the door to those that will use that against you in the legal ramifications that will surely follow any Self Defense use of your firearm, REGARDLESS how justified that use was.

I'm not saying that is right, I am saying that is what will happen, period. There are a lot of people out there backed up with big money just looking for the opportunity to crucify any one of us who uses our firearms for self-defense. And California has a LOT more of them than most places. The ones in charge of California believe in the British model that we have no right to self defense. That even if your family is attacked you must retreat and wait for the police. That is the ultimate goal of the damn socialist Godless bastards that I mentioned. We need to be careful not to put the arrows in their quivers to use against us.

Just think about it. How many of you would want a 2lb trigger on your pocket pistol? Would that really be such a good idea? I'm not saying that no handgun should have a 2lb trigger but it is just not smart for even the best pistoleros to have such on a SD pocket pistol. Same argument goes in favor of Mag Disconnect Safeties. For a home defense gun and even for Police carry they make a lot of sense were as a 2lb trigger would not, period. Some years ago when I paid better attention to such things 1 out of 5 police officers killed in the line of duty were killed with their own weapon. Several Police officers owe their life to their ability to drop the mag during the struggle for their gun so that they could disengage from the wrestling match and deal with the threat with their back-up.

Again I say, I just do not understand what certainly appears to me to be an irrational hatred for Magazine Disconnect Safeties. Yes there are some like on the Highpower I mentioned that are designed to hamper quick mag reloads and are cumbersome to deal with. But there are several other designs out there that you have no idea they are present until you pull the trigger with no magazine. I encourage all gun manufactures to put those types into their guns and as I stated those that don't want them are usually smart enough to figure out how to disable them... but... maybe not smart enough to know that it would not be all that good an idea.

Sorry if I sound a little brash. The earlier post saying I should sell my firearms put me in a bad mood.

[RenegadeRebel]

There is no law saying I cant modify my gun as I see fit. Please name me one case where a person was charged with a crime because they used a gun that had been modified in self defense.

Whether the modification was a lighter trigger, disabling safeties, or what-have-you. Please cite one reputable source where the shoot was justified, but the shooter served time because of the modifications he did to his gun.

Maybe, MAYBE, I could understand your point if I did something like modify my glock 17 into a full auto glock 18 without a permit. But any other modification could easily be justified by any half witted lawyer.

Lets take your example of a 2 pound trigger. Say the prosecutor brings to light your ultra easy to use "hair finger kill trigger," the argument against that would be that it doesn't matter if the trigger is 20 pounds or 2; either way it needed to be pulled to kill the bad guy; so ease of pulling it does not matter. Unless he would have been 18 pounds less dead with the heavy trigger or something??

Same with the disconnect. The magazine was going to be in the gun no matter what if the guy was shot dead right (esp if more then one shot was used)? So what should it matter if I disabled a safety that was going to be disabled by default any way when I pulled the trigger and emptied my magazine in his chest?

Face it, you said it yourself, you were a Army man and a LEO, not a judge or a lawyer. You have no idea if those things would put me in a hot spot in court; thats just what you THINK might happen...Unless like I said earlier you can cite me a concrete example of such an incident.

[jocko]

u just can't beat front row seats

[dannyeller]

Renegade, Your right for the most part on there is no law (that I know of) that states you cannot disable you firearm's safety. However, I have spent numerous hours in courts listening to the dribble put out by Civil attorneys and sometimes prosecutors. And to think that they would not make hay out of a disable safety on a gun you used to shoot one of their clients family members with you are just fooling yourself. This is not about what is law or even what is wrong or right. It is just what will happen if you use a firearm no matter how justified the circumstances. I haven't seen them do it on firearms yet but I have seen some attorney actually get money for a client whose now dead adult son bought two cases of beer from a grocery store then ran off the road after drinking most of it. That incident and many others showing attorneys using idiotic arguments that have no bases in fact and getting away with it. Even if they did not win you are still screwed, period. The least that will happen is that you'll walk out of court with your pockets a year or two lighter than when it started. My personal observations prove to me that the horror stories told by Mas Ayoob of such issues while being an expert witness on numerous trials are true.

See: http://www.backwoodshome.com/ayoob_index.html

Mas has published numerous articles discussing his testimony were the issues of gun modifications and type of ammunition used became serious problems for both civilians and police officers involved in shootings during several cases.

To me this just makes sense. I can understand that you want to do something and just don't like it when someone points out the problems with that decision. Again I say if you bought it you can modify it. But I am not just convinced but know beyond a doubt that it is just not a good idea to disable any of a guns safeties. Either for practical reasons or for reasons that could cost you your life's savings after a court judgement against you. And remember Torts do not have to be against any law to cost you a bundle.

[jocko]

In my older age, I have learned that one should not try to push his beliefs on another. It is always nice to present ones thoughts but leave it at that. to many scenarios come into play with this topic and one court case doesn't mean jack sh-t one way or the other. One can sue over damn near anything today.

If one feels a certain way about how he wants to carry his gun etc, then he should just do it ..99.995% of all of us on this forumn are not going to be in any shooting conflict, so what we do to our guns be they good or not is a personal thing that is not really going to effect anyone anyhow. Just my 2 cents.

I ran out of popcorn,so I had to make a comment!!