My First Concealed Carry Incident

[dollarguy]

I had an incident in concealed/carry this week, my first one since being licensed in June 2009. No "physical" confrontation occurred, and no shots were fired.

I will post this weekend the details after my job week's obligations are completed.

Until then, if any one might wish to disclose their personal confrontation(s) and what actually happened, please do post your incident.

I make no judgments, no decisions, and no "dissing" of actions others have faced in their personal situations. The only "right" decision is that you are alive and your weapon has not been confiscated for investigation of a shooting incident.

I do thank my instructor in concealed/carry license class my gratitude in having a chance to make (in my opinion), the correct choice this week. Her guidance kept me restrained in what I would have done without the responsibility training I learned from her.

God Bless America and the Second Amendment.

dollarguy

:)

[dollarguy]

My First Concealed/Carry Incident:

I compose this in my little personal way to relieve the stress and fear I encountered in my first concealed/carry incident. I ask no one to agree with me, but I would like to hear how you might have handled it better.

All happened going home from work last Tuesday afternoon around 6:30PM.

My license arrived in June 2009. My first encounter with pistols came last February with the arrival of an XDM 9mm. My Kahr PM9 was delivered a month ago. At work, I wear business attire with a tie, often without a coat during warm weather, I have not settled upon an IWB holster yet. Consequently, my PM 9 is between my legs in the car in a seat holster. The XDM is in a gun pouch underneath the passenger front seat, easily reachable in need if I have any thoughts of possible danger. If I am wearing a jacket, I often will put the PM9 in a pocket when I exit the car. If not it stays in the car, slid under the driver’s seat and well hidden.

I turned into a mixed apartment/town home complex about a mile from my home. Although the complex is only about 50% complete, there is around a 20% occupancy by residents of the 50% completed. Consequently, construction workers have residential traffic as well as construction traffic during the work day.

The road was completely blocked by a pickup/trailer headed as I was in my car. A very large tractor was directed at me along side of the pickup with both drivers deep in conversation. They looked at me but continued their conversation, totally blocking my access on a residential street. Around three minutes of wait time, I closed from 75 feet to 35 feet, and now received the middle finger salute from both workers. I waited another minute and now finally the tractor began to move toward me. The tractor driver did not salute again, and when he cleared, I moved forward to pass the pickup. Just as I came to about 10 feet from him, he saluted me again and took steps half way to my car.

Here I am, with 19 rounds in the XDM, but under the passenger seat. My PM9 is between my legs with 6 rounds, one chambered for action. With fear sweat breaking out on my face, my hand is on the grip but he can not see that I have a weapon. Around 5 feet away in front of the car but not blocking my progress forward, he continues saluting and telling me off. Slowly I stare ahead not making eye contact but always in sight of his stance to see if he will hit my car. As I move past him, he continues saluting me as I watch in the rear view mirror, his jaws flapping.

I am feeling a little nauseous, and more than a little shaky. As I park in the garage of my home, I sit there, thinking about what happened, and even more about what could have happened.

What if he had hit my car? He could have grabbed a hammer out of his truck very easily. The car can be fixed, and I hopefully could have gunned the gas and escaped. I am not sure if I could have kept my CC license if I had shot/killed a man bashing on my windshield. Possibly if his tool had breached my window, I would have been in real danger for my life and not been prosecuted for killing the construction worker. I do not CC for the killing of anyone. I do it only to have a chance against an aggressor. Most often, I have heard of an incident where a gun was either displayed or actually drawn and aimed, causing the aggressor(s) to flee with no rounds fired. I pray this will always happen for me.

I truly appreciate your reading this far.

I ask again, what would you have done?

…dollarguy

[jimmer]

I'm sorry this happened to you. Whenever possible WALK AWAY!! Your case drive away, I hear this over and over again from training, all the fingers, yelling, screaming, spitting does not justify drawing my weapon A.O.J. was not there.

[JustinN]

My answer is based off my past experience as a police officer, so I may view things slightly differently from civilians, and even differently from other police officers, but, even if the worker had pulled out a hammer and started hitting the side of your car with it, you would not have had any justification in shooting him. You are operating, not just sitting in, but actively driving a car, which means you could have easily moved away from the aggressor. I am assuming he was on the passenger side of your car, and therefor he would have had an extremely hard time actually causing you physical harm before you could drive away, even if the hammer had smashed out your window.

All that being said, a BIG portion of the outcome would depend on where you are. Some states are much more lenient on gun related incidents, and that would make a difference in the outcome. Think of it this way; If you had been walking past and the guy was yelling and yelling, but never actually made any physical threat to you, could you have punched him? I would say no, therefor I would definitely say no to shooting him. Now, you were in a moving car, which means you have even less reason to react with violence, even if he had struck your vehicle. As far as using the gun as an intimidation device (pointing it to make someone stop something, without the intention of shooting them) that gets tricky. A couple of things could have happened. It could have made him calm down quickly and he would run away to his car (maybe to learn a lesson, or maybe to call the police and end up getting you arrested for assault (threat of violence that you could have easily followed through with)) OR he could have been CCing and then pulled his own gun, and you end up in a shoot out....

That is the tricky part of carrying a firearm. A split second decision will end in life altering results. I would say you responded well to the incident as you did not aggravate the conflict, nor did you pull your gun. Also, my responses and thoughts are based on a large amount of training, and the fact that I am hearing the story and sitting here thinking about a reaction (Monday morning quarterback). Things ended well this time, so I would say you did everything right. This was a good learning example for you, and nothing will prepare you for the stress of a real situation like actually being in one. Since you are definitely CCing alot, you may check around and see if there are any tactical classes in your area, that not only include legal and tactical discussions, but also offer practical training, where they throw you in situations and you make the decision of what to do....

Like Jimmer said "When possible Walk Away".

[DETROIT]

Kept driving....

So why where they flicking you off in the first place?

[dollarguy]

My answer is based off my past experience as a police officer, so I may view things slightly differently from civilians, and even differently from other police officers, but, even if the worker had pulled out a hammer and started hitting the side of your car with it, you would not have had any justification in shooting him. You are operating, not just sitting in, but actively driving a car, which means you could have easily moved away from the aggressor. I am assuming he was on the passenger side of your car, and therefor he would have had an extremely hard time actually causing you physical harm before you could drive away, even if the hammer had smashed out your window.

All that being said, a BIG portion of the outcome would depend on where you are. Some states are much more lenient on gun related incidents, and that would make a difference in the outcome. Think of it this way; If you had been walking past and the guy was yelling and yelling, but never actually made any physical threat to you, could you have punched him? I would say no, therefor I would definitely say no to shooting him. Now, you were in a moving car, which means you have even less reason to react with violence, even if he had struck your vehicle. As far as using the gun as an intimidation device (pointing it to make someone stop something, without the intention of shooting them) that gets tricky. A couple of things could have happened. It could have made him calm down quickly and he would run away to his car (maybe to learn a lesson, or maybe to call the police and end up getting you arrested for assault (threat of violence that you could have easily followed through with)) OR he could have been CCing and then pulled his own gun, and you end up in a shoot out....

That is the tricky part of carrying a firearm. A split second decision will end in life altering results. I would say you responded well to the incident as you did not aggravate the conflict, nor did you pull your gun. Also, my responses and thoughts are based on a large amount of training, and the fact that I am hearing the story and sitting here thinking about a reaction (Monday morning quarterback). Things ended well this time, so I would say you did everything right. This was a good learning example for you, and nothing will prepare you for the stress of a real situation like actually being in one. Since you are definitely CCing alot, you may check around and see if there are any tactical classes in your area, that not only include legal and tactical discussions, but also offer practical training, where they throw you in situations and you make the decision of what to do....

Like Jimmer said "When possible Walk Away".


I appreciate your thoughts.

I do hope there will be posts from others on confrontational incidents, even if it is second hand. :)

[arizona98tj]

I am not a LEO. I am not a lawyer. I've never played either on TV. I didn't sleep in a Holiday Express last night.

That being said, I believe JustinN summed it up pretty good.

From my view point (ie., not being there and reading your accounting of the situation), I can't think of any justifiable reason why you could have pulled a deadly weapon.

I agree with JustinN in that you probably want to get some serious follow-up training now that you are permitted to carry concealed. It is a hell of a responsibility, regardless of what some may say, IMHO. I've found that the better prepared I am, both from a legal perspective (fully understanding the law as best I can) and from a physical perspective (skill at arms is where I believe it needs to best handle such a situation), the less I worry about it in general. It may sound a little odd, but knowing that I can end someone's life with the pull of the trigger gives me much more patience in events where I previously may have gotten upset very easily.

Good luck....thanks for sharing.....and I hope future issues (if there are any), go better for you. :)

[LaVere]

I think you responded perfectly correct. Knowing the responsibility of carrying. I'll go even farther than that, to avoid confrontation. My manhood or ego is not on the line. You will gain more confidence and what and when to do (it).

Take some good defensive class that will teach you decision making, Rapid draw, shooting, reloading, shooting while moving, and multiple targets and so forth.

[Dietrich]

You did the right thing by getting yourself out of there. Thank goodness it didn`t escalate into a shooting situation. I`m familiar with the fear that you felt as I had a close call myself that I will post after this.Good job of keeping your head. A call about the incident to the general contractor or the developer may be in order. Believe me,they will not be happy hearing about two workers flipping off a resident and threatening him.

[deadhead1971]

Here is the how I see it. :) My diatribe is as follows....

In this day and age, a lot of bad stuff has happened and is happening. In fact, after 9/11 the government has taken a position of ZERO tolerance. Folks are being arrested and going to jail for mickey-mouse stuff--stuff we would not have batted an eye at year earlier. Kids are being punished / expelled by the school system for doodling "war scenes" or "guns." A few years back, some chap pointed a laser pen at an airplane. He was caught by "officials," and I think the "feds" threw him in jail and tossed away the key. I am sure you can think of other societal "crackdowns" in the last several years. Where are we? Tiananmen Square?

If the government is going to take a "zero tolerance" position (heck, you can't hardly carry anything on a plane these days) to guard and protect against the bad guys, then the average good citizen should also take a zero tolerance position. This means getting your hands on your gun and being ready much sooner than you would have years ago. I hate to profile here, but if you are sitting in your car with the windows up at a parking lot, and a "hoodlum" approaches and tries to get your attention, the good citizen must now automatically assume trouble. Heck, the government profiles. In the old days when the door bell rang, we went and opened the door without much worry. Now, we must assume trouble and either not open the door or open it packing a weapon. Example: http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/6124241/

So in DollarGuy's scenario, he was in fear of his life although he was not in an immediate threat, but things were quickly becoming a hostile environment, and there was uncertainty of the workers' intentions. And that's the real problem--trying to anticipate the actions of others and make decisions based on that.

[NavJAG06]

+1 JustinN. Your advice is both practically and legally sound. Additionally, a common scenario that may occur had dollarguy pulled his weapon and "brandished" it, is as follows: the construction guys would have called law enforcement and reported that they were minding their business when an inpatient motorist pointed a gun at them in a threatening manner. Law enforcement would have had to investigate and dollarguy could have been arrested. In some states brandishing in a threatening manner can result in a mandatory sentence. First rule of engagement... if you can safely remove yourself from a potentially or actual threatening situation, do so. NRA has a couple of excellent publications regarding self-defense inside and outside of one's residence. A good starter. Practical training with a qualified instructor along with a good primer in the law is also strongly recommended.

[johnh]

I agree, fantastic post Justin! A lot of good information in a very informative thread. I don't have any examples to post myself. I have been lucky and am glad of it. I suppose a lot of that in my experience comes from just not placing myself in places where anything is likely to happen. I am too old and slow to be in bars, out late at night, hanging around with bikers...

:biggrin1:

(lets see if the other mods notice that last comment--inside joke....)

John

[Cappy]

Dollarguy, you made the right choice, and Justin's points are very sound. When it comes to guns even when you shoot to protect yourself, you can end up in a real legal battle. When a person gets shot your world will change. I have a friend that returned fire to protect himself, and shot the guy in the chest with one shot. His world was turned up-side down for more than two years. So, if you are not a LEO - the systems will tear your story every which way until they are sure there was no other choice. In other words, the system does not assume you are properly trained to make the right decision, as they do with a LEO. So in my opinion, don't pull that gun until there is absolutely no choice. My comments are based on watching what my friend went through for more than two years, after returning fire upon a drug dealer that started shooting at him in the dark. My friends mistake, stopping his car in Detroit after dark and stepping out of his car. The wrong place at the wrong time!

[.45mac.40]

:popcorn:

johnH ..... Ahhhhhh Maaaannnnnnnnn ! :D

Ridin' with my BIKER friends, hanging out in bars with tha' bar girls, and staying out late at night .... that's the only way to go .... THE REST of my time ... IS WASTED !
Mac :33:

[deadhead1971]

Cappy--

Stories like yours make me think why even bother carry. If something happens and you don't carry, you die. If you do carry, you'll end up in jail, broke, and run through the system.

Did the DA file charges for political reasons?

[Cappy]

Cappy--

Stories like yours make me think why even bother carry. If something happens and you don't carry, you die. If you do carry, you'll end up in jail, broke, and run through the system.

Did the DA file charges for political reasons?

It is a long story, but yes my understanding is the DA's office went after this White, Bald, Biker who shot a man of color. My friend had a rather poor attorney in the beginning, which cost him a lot of time and money. But, to be fair, I have to say my friend goofed up too. He left the scene before getting in touch with the police. My understanding is the police still said it was self-defense from the beginning, but I understood that the DA's office said he was a “white racist” that was out on a mission to kill people of color that night. For the third trial, they finely got all the evidence admitted, which proved my friend had been telling the truth from the beginning. He shot back in self defense of the man shooting at him! I was told my friend shot one 9mm, and there were several 38 special bullets shot at my friend by the Drug Dealer. This evidence and the powder residue results off the clothing of the Drug Dealer, were never admitted as evidence until the third trial. The whole incident woke my eyes to how the system can totally destroy your life. Sorry for the long – short version. I guess the morel here is, if you shoot, make sure you do everything by the book. Immediately call the police from the scene, stay in that dark street even if there are more perpetrators there, and make sure your gun is on the ground before the police get there. My friend left because he was afraid of more druggies being in the dark that would further attack him. That was maybe his biggest mistake in the whole incident! :phone:

[paul0660]

I would have opened a window and asked the guys what the holdup was. It seems they were already pissed at the OP for some reason however. Maybe things are different in Shawnee Mission, but I don't think we got the whole story. Not shooting people who were showing the middle finger and making noise was a good idea.

[hoot]

My First Concealed/Carry Incident:

I compose this in my little personal way to relieve the stress and fear I encountered in my first concealed/carry incident. I ask no one to agree with me, but I would like to hear how you might have handled it better.

All happened going home from work last Tuesday afternoon around 6:30PM.

My license arrived in June 2009. My first encounter with pistols came last February with the arrival of an XDM 9mm. My Kahr PM9 was delivered a month ago. At work, I wear business attire with a tie, often without a coat during warm weather, I have not settled upon an IWB holster yet. Consequently, my PM 9 is between my legs in the car in a seat holster. The XDM is in a gun pouch underneath the passenger front seat, easily reachable in need if I have any thoughts of possible danger. If I am wearing a jacket, I often will put the PM9 in a pocket when I exit the car. If not it stays in the car, slid under the driver’s seat and well hidden.

I turned into a mixed apartment/town home complex about a mile from my home. Although the complex is only about 50% complete, there is around a 20% occupancy by residents of the 50% completed. Consequently, construction workers have residential traffic as well as construction traffic during the work day.

The road was completely blocked by a pickup/trailer headed as I was in my car. A very large tractor was directed at me along side of the pickup with both drivers deep in conversation. They looked at me but continued their conversation, totally blocking my access on a residential street. Around three minutes of wait time, I closed from 75 feet to 35 feet, and now received the middle finger salute from both workers. I waited another minute and now finally the tractor began to move toward me. The tractor driver did not salute again, and when he cleared, I moved forward to pass the pickup. Just as I came to about 10 feet from him, he saluted me again and took steps half way to my car.

Here I am, with 19 rounds in the XDM, but under the passenger seat. My PM9 is between my legs with 6 rounds, one chambered for action. With fear sweat breaking out on my face, my hand is on the grip but he can not see that I have a weapon. Around 5 feet away in front of the car but not blocking my progress forward, he continues saluting and telling me off. Slowly I stare ahead not making eye contact but always in sight of his stance to see if he will hit my car. As I move past him, he continues saluting me as I watch in the rear view mirror, his jaws flapping.

I am feeling a little nauseous, and more than a little shaky. As I park in the garage of my home, I sit there, thinking about what happened, and even more about what could have happened.

What if he had hit my car? He could have grabbed a hammer out of his truck very easily. The car can be fixed, and I hopefully could have gunned the gas and escaped. I am not sure if I could have kept my CC license if I had shot/killed a man bashing on my windshield. Possibly if his tool had breached my window, I would have been in real danger for my life and not been prosecuted for killing the construction worker. I do not CC for the killing of anyone. I do it only to have a chance against an aggressor. Most often, I have heard of an incident where a gun was either displayed or actually drawn and aimed, causing the aggressor(s) to flee with no rounds fired. I pray this will always happen for me.

I truly appreciate your reading this far.

I ask again, what would you have done?

…dollarguy


run away to play another day

[henryher]

I can tell you from a guy in Florida where we have a stand your ground law that you did the right thing. People call Florida the wild west because we have laws to protect law abiding citizens that have to use a gun to protect themselves. However, I have found that Florida also has many laws in the books that tell you exactly when, were and how you can shoot. We also have a three year mandatory jail sentence without probation if you brandish a gun during a an argument. The gun doesn't have to be loaded or even functional. In Florida you can stand your ground if you are in your vehicle. However, the attacker has to be in the process of trying to enter to harm you or physically trying to remove you or a passenger from the car to do bodily harm. Also if you have the ability to drive away the courts will take it into consideration also. I think you acted properly under the circumstances. What I would have done additional if possible is file a complaint first with the developer that owns the subdivision or apartment complex. Then with the contractor that hired those guys or main contractor that sub contracted them. The last thing the developer wants is the contractor's workers intimidating or in any way harrassing their tenants. This can get our to prospective buyers and kill sales of the units. In these times when the housing market is down the toilet they can't afford any problems that will discourage buyers.

[Colossal Uprising]

I have been in many fights/arguements and none of them would I consider drawing on. There are those that rush to display their weapon. I only display mine if I feel my life or the life of someone else is in danger.

I will give you an example. 2 a.m., my house is without electricity- I won't go into why. I hear the back window of my house near the pool slide open. I go back and there is a guy climbing through the window - obviously figuring noone was home because of how dark the house is.

I had a laser sight on my weapon, I brought it acrossed his eyes and onto his chest. He froze, I held him there, called the cops, and the rest is history.

Even an armed robbery for me is not necessarily time to draw my weapon - it depends on if I feel the robber is likely to use his weapon.

In my opinion, while I am sure you were nervous, you need to be aware of where your weapons is at all times, obviously, but you were too intent on it.

[500KV]

To me, circumstances would dictate my use of deadly force. I've tried to visualize all the situations that might occur, but for me it's an impossibility and have decided I'd just have to play it by ear.

If someone, armed, says "give it up", rather than try to draw, and in the process, get shot or shoot them, I'd probably hand it over and take my losses.
On the other hand, and under different circumstances, if they said "give me your little grandson", they would definitely be in a gunfight.

I have concluded that, at worst, I'm probably going to be at a disadvantage to start with and circumstances will dictate whatever actions I would take.
I will agree that restraint, as was stated, is the key in most situations.

Good thread. :yo:

[Bawanna]

Dollarguy, you made the right choice, and Justin's points are very sound. When it comes to guns even when you shoot to protect yourself, you can end up in a real legal battle. When a person gets shot your world will change. I have a friend that returned fire to protect himself, and shot the guy in the chest with one shot. His world was turned up-side down for more than two years. So, if you are not a LEO - the systems will tear your story every which way until they are sure there was no other choice. In other words, the system does not assume you are properly trained to make the right decision, as they do with a LEO. So in my opinion, don't pull that gun until there is absolutely no choice. My comments are based on watching what my friend went through for more than two years, after returning fire upon a drug dealer that started shooting at him in the dark. My friends mistake, stopping his car in Detroit after dark and stepping out of his car. The wrong place at the wrong time!

Being LEO isn't exactly a get out of jail card either. They live in a glass house under a microscope maybe even worse than us civilians. The scarey part is the key word to most investigations is what would a reasonable normal person do in each event. In this day and age define reasonable or normal. :40:

[unclenunzie]

The scarey part is the key word to most investigations is what would a reasonable normal person do in each event. In this day and age define reasonable or normal.

Shooting back when fired upon by a thug?