PM45 input requested

[Drh]

I came across a blued PM45 at my local shop. It is Being sold as used but was never shot (I validated with previous owner). Because I recently bought a CW380 and CM9 they offered it to me for $550. Looking to add 45 acp to my CCW inventory. I am looking for feedback from PM45 owners regarding this gun. Please provide your opinions on reliability as a CCW. Would you recommend this gun?

thanks
Dan

[ohio lock]

Love my PM45. I am wearing it right now as I type this. Recoil is manageable, shoots straight on, fits my hand like a glove and is powerful. I have had only one FTE in the first 200 rounds and nothing since, with about 500 rounds shot through. You will love it.

[Buzzard45]

Just be aware that a FIRM grip is mandatory, and be prepared for some attention at the range; these things have quite a bark. As in : what the heck is that hand cannon you got there? As for recoil, lets just say a cm9 is kinda mild by comparison.

[BEARDOG]

Not PM45 input but ...
FYI - Not sure if you are aware, or interested (if not, disregard my post) in the fact that the new CM45 is available now.
I recently bought one for about $200 LE$$ then the used PM45 your looking at.
Also on a used Kahr you may run into "issues" trying to get warranty work done depending on how Kahr CS feels like treating you about it.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?24221-Bought-a-CM45-Today!(Pics-Range-report-added)

[Drh]

Thanks for the heads up on the CM45. I knew it was due sometime this year but not that it was available now. I called my local dealer and he can have it here next day with the Davidson lifetime guarantee for $369.95, WOW!
i think I can get the PM45 for $525.00 so that's $155.00 more than the CM. Now please help me understand is the PM version worth the extra $155? Or is this a no brainer?

[ohio lock]

Does the PM45 have the night sights? Mine does. If it has them they are worth the extra $150.

[Drh]

No it does not. What it does have is that it is a blued gun which I like more than the two tone. Probably not worth the extra money though.

[BEARDOG]

The finish is not actually bluing... The black coating Kahr uses is called DLC "diamond like coating" and is a very strong wear resistant coating over stainless steel. If it is worth that much more $, plus the possible warranty issues with a used Kahr is your call.

edit; Another FYI ...Kahr is currently having a promo - Buy a new C series gun and they give you a second magazine free of charge after sending in some paper work.

Here are the other differences between the C + P kahrs.
http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae70/BeardogV1/cm-chart.jpg (http://s958.photobucket.com/user/BeardogV1/media/cm-chart.jpg.html)

[b4uqzme]

For me it's a no-brainer just because I like the looks of the CM45 slide better than the PM45. But that's just personal preference. I think the warranty is a valuable consideration too. So I vote CM45 (if you are taking a poll). ;)

That being said, I bought both my Kahrs used. But they are stainless and I think that makes a difference.

[CJB]

The frame and works of the PM45 are the same as the CM45. Only difference really... is the rifling (no big deal) and the front sight attachment (which may be a big deal for some sight types).

I walked into Florida Gun Exchange one day during Bikeweek, and walked out packing a PM45. It worked so well, that I bought another as soon as I could find one used. The used one also runs perfectly. It rides in my front pocket every day. Two PM45's, zero real isses, other than a few quibbles at first on the new one I got. Those have since abated.

I don't know of any reason a CM45 would work with any less certainty.

[Drh]

Ok Guys, I appreciate all the feedback. I am ready to pull the trigger so to speak on the CM45 but I just came across some disturbing information that I need feedback on. i subscribe to Gun Tests magazine and just read a review they did on the PM45 in 2009 where they gave the gun a grade of "F". They said it was very unreliable, unsafe and did not recommend it. They were down on Kahr for this gun. Can I chalk this up to an early version of the gun before bugs were worked out or what? They were very high on the PM40 except for brutal recoil and pretty high on the PM9. As we all know, for a pistol to be a CCW it has to be totally reliable so can I count of the CM45?

Thanks
Dan

[b4uqzme]

Gun Tests magazine was pretty much alone in their opinion. Take it for what it's worth. I recommend you read several reviews plus the PM45 threads here. It's not hard to find accounts of issues with 3 inch 45's of all types and brands. But PM/CM45's will run fine with care and persistence.

[DJK11]

Is the used PM45 you are considering the older style or current version? I have two PM45, on older DLC and a current bi-tone version. Both my favorite pistols.

[JohnR]

The PM45 is much easier to shoot than I expected for such a small, light .45. It's been plenty reliable, too.

[BEARDOG]

I don't know what Gun Tests said they had issues with exactly back in 09? I can't read it because I am not a member. Oh well, maybe could have been an easy fix if they knew how to do it, or just sent it back to Kahr?
One bad review from over 5yrs ago would not stop me from getting the gun I wanted.
Kahr gives a 5 yr warranty and it sounds like you are also going to have Davidson's warranty beyond that so if you have issues you should be well covered for any work that is needed.

I do know that there are members here on KT that love their PM45's. Even our high speed, low drag, spec operator moderator carries one! So if it is good enough for him you know its good!:cool:
And over the years hanging out here I have read of a few having some issues with them too...Pretty much the same story can be told about ANY brand /model firearm made. Heck you can find conflicting opinions/reviews on just about any product on the internet these days...Sometimes you just have to jump in and see how it works for you.

The CM45 is brand new (mine is one of the first 50 made) so you are not going to find much on it yet. Myself and two other members have posted range reports/reviews so far about them here so you can read them.
I am very pleased with my sample of one so far, and plan to carry it often. I would not hesitate to buy another one if needed.

[Drh]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate all the input. I currently own a CW380 and a CM9 so the Kahr 45 seems like a perfect addition. Due to the price of the PM45, the question from DJK11 of whether it is the old or newer version which I don't know the answer to, I am going with the CM45 which will get me a new gun with Kahr warranty, Davidson warranty and an additional free magazine for $150 cheaper. On my way to put down payment and order. I should have it in hand tomorrow.

Dan

[BEARDOG]

Great! Let us know what you think of it when you get a chance.

[Drh]

I just brought my new CM45 home. Hope to get to the range tomorrow or Friday to try it out and start the break in period. Man I can't believe how much oil Kahr put on this gun. It is dripping with oil. I will start by cleaning it real good. It is Unbelievable how tight the spring is. It takes all my might to rack the slide. I am pretty pumped to get it to the range and take it for a test drive.

[Bawanna]

I believe they put a lot of oil because they have no idea how long they will sit on a dealers or distributors shelves.

The oil is thin and wipes off easily.

I checked my striker channel due to folks saying they found junk in theirs. Mine was pristene. Put it back together and just shot it like I stole it right out of the box. 350 rounds first outing with me and my son shooting.

Also with gun test, I used to get it and liked it, but they make zero effort to fix or adjust anything at all. They are like some new owners here, if there's the slightest issue they don't like they write that they are not happy since its not perfect out of the box.

Some are, some need a tweek. We'll be here to help and Kahr will take care of it if we can't.

[Drh]

I broke my CM45 down and besides some extra oil it was very pristine. Cleaned and lubed and I am ready to get to the range. Going to sit here and rack the slide a bunch to try and start loosening it up. I would like to find out when it was manufactured. Some manufacturers put the mfg date on the end of the box but not Kahr so do I have to call them and give them the serial # to find out?

[JohnR]

Email their customer service, they've always provided the mfg. date very promptly for me.

[Drh]

I just got back from the range with my new CM45. First off I have to say it is a very sweet shooter. Recoil was not bad at all, I was very surprised how accurate it was and how easy follow up shots are. Pretty amazing for such a small 45.
Now on to the issues:

100 rounds shot today of American Eagle, Remington, PPU.
FTF - None. Very pleased all rounds shot as expected.
FTE - this was a major issue. The last round of Every magazine I shot except two so that's 18 out of 20 jammed. I would show a picture if I could figure out how but the empty shell was jamming on the way out to where I had to drop the magazine and then it would fall out. This was very discouraging and leads to my question of whether this is just part of the 200 round break in or something else may be going on. I would appreciate any help here?

I also had Many of the empty shells coming straight back and hitting me in the forehead. Is this something I should expect to clear up as the gun breaks in?

Thanks in advance for any advise,
Dan

[Bawanna]

My PM45 will toss empties to my forehead if I get the least bit sloppy with my grip. Kind of a wake up call. I'd say that should get some better with more rounds fired.

I can't say for certain on the last round jam situation. Since it's getting stuck on the way out and not the way in, I'd say the feed lips and follower on the magazine are not an issue.

[b4uqzme]

There's threads on here about last round jamming....I just can't remember the outcomes. You might wanna do some surfin'.

[BEARDOG]

Sorry to hear you had trouble with your new Kahr.

Does the extractor seem to have a good grip on the case rim?

Edit: Found this for you in Greg's 45 issues and fixes thread.
scroll down to "last round jams"
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?1612-CW45-(and-other-poly-45)-issues-and-fixes&p=15669#post15669

[Drh]

Sorry to hear you had trouble with your new Kahr.

Does the extractor seem to have a good grip on the case rim?

Edit: Found this for you in Greg's 45 issues and fixes thread.
scroll down to "last round jams"
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?1612-CW45-(and-other-poly-45)-issues-and-fixes&p=15669#post15669
I am not sure. Thanks for the post, I will read it. Is there a way to attach photos to a post and I could show you what I got?

[Bawanna]

You need 30 post before you can post a direct picture. You can post a link from like photobucket etc.

[Drh]

This is what the FTE looks like on last round if this picture actually posts. Thinking it is either extractor or magazine issue.
http://http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s432/dhanson1123/imagejpg1.jpg (http://s1051.photobucket.com/user/dhanson1123/media/imagejpg1.jpg.html)

[Drh]

I decided to call Kahr today and get their opinion on the issue I had on my first trip to the range thinking they might just offer to send me another magazine to try. The representative put me on hold and came back a couple minutes later and said the gunsmith wanted me to send the gun in so I am a little bummed but back to Kahr it goes Monday. I thought about just buying another magazine and trying it to see if the problem goes away but I assume there is a reason Kahr wants to look at it. BTW, I found out that the manufacture date on it is July so it was fresh off the production line. Anyway hopefully they will get to the bottom of it and when it comes back it will be 100% reliable.

[CJB]

fte is the common situation with a new Kahr. STRONG recoil spring. Whats happening on the last round is that there is no extra round's hump, just the follower as the ejection occurs... that little extra from the next round is helping ejection... and its not there on the last round.

Its ok. You're doing well. Get that CM45 broken in some, it''ll perform perfectly in short time with shooting.

THe more FULL HOUSE rounds you put through it the better.

[Drh]

Thanks for the info CJB. Do you think I should send it back to Kahr since they said they wanted to look at it?
Already have it boxed up to ship out on Monday or hold on to it and keep shooting it to break it in and see if the issue resolves itself?

[CJB]

Your call. If you gotta label from them...send it! Only loss is time.

[Drh]

Yep they sent me a label so guess I will see what they have to say. Thanks for the input.

[Drh]

Received my CM45 back from Kahr today. Sent back to them as last round from every magazine was giving me a FTE (stove pipe). I thought it might just be a magazine issue but the Kahr gunsmith said they wanted to look at it so back to Kahr it went. Anyway here is the action taken off of the technical service work sheet from Kahr:

1). Reamed chamber
2). Reworked extractor and extractor spring tension.
3). Lubed and EV tested good.

i am looking for some help understanding what exactly this means they did to the gun.
- Reamed chamber? Does that mean they shaved off some material inside the barrel? Why would they do that?
- Reworked extractor and extractor spring tension. I thought maybe that meant replacing but was told no. I don't understand how you rework extractor and extractor spring tension.

Thanks in advance for any help,
Dan

[Drh]

Got out to the range today to try my CM45 fresh back from Kahr. I had 100 rounds through it before I sent it back. Today I put 200 more rounds through it so I am now at a total of 300 rounds. This time at the range, The first 60-70 rounds were flawless, no issues other than many of the extracted shells hitting me in the forehead which does not feel good. At about 70 or so I started getting intermittent FTEs AGAIN... What a bummer, very discouraging. So out of 200 rounds shot today I probably had 6 FTEs. I know that's not many but is it to much to ask for This gun to be 100% reliable or close to it? I expect a lot from my CCW so would this concern you if this was your pistol? I now see that I have three options:

1) live with gun the way it is and see if it gets better.
2) return to Kahr and give them another chance to get it right.
3) use my Davidson's warranty and ask for a new gun.

Looking for feedback from all but especially CM45/PM45 owners.

thanks
Dan