PM45 is ammo finicky!

[Rangemeister]

Been out of the loop for awhile and just got my hands on a PM45 that is having some weird ammo issues. I have almost 200 rds of various rounds down range that includes WWB 185 and Federal American 185 JHP. No issues at all. I went to get some self defense ammo and could not find exactly what I was looking for so tried some Hornady 185 Critical defense. I loaded up the gun and before going to the range, I tried to hand cycle the stuff and the round would not extract! I had to find a good solid door casing and forced the slide to the rear. The same thing happened when I tried using some Triple K snap caps. I took several measurements and the diameter of the Federals and WWB was .460 near the bullet while the triple K snaps and Hornadys measured at .470. I did not realize the chamber of this PM45 was so finicky about .010 of an inch? Anyone have a similar experience and will the Hornady's extract under range conditions? I got a box of Federal 165 Hydro Schox and they cycle perfect and are by the way .460. The gun is new. Thanks for your input! :amflag: PS- The PM45 has very manageable recoil using 185gr and a set of Talon grips!

[O'Dell]

It will probably work when you shoot the offending rounds. My CM45 would shoot everything, but had a problem ejecting HP's by hand. Five minutes working the corner of the barrel hood with 400 sandpaper fixed it. Now it will not only shoot and eject the defense rounds, I can empty the chamber by hand.

[yqtszhj]

My CW45 doesn't like Hornady critical defense or critical duty. It shoots speer gold dots or federal JHP ammo ok though.

[wyntrout]

I have never shot anything but 230-grain loads... normal pressure, except for the +P Underwood 230-gr Gold Dots I bought(a case) when things started getting tight several years ago. Those are a bit stout and reserved for my carbine, whenever I get to shooting it. I've had no problems with "normal" 230-grain ammo. I try to keep it simple and shoot one weight for which the pistols are designed... and 230-grain bullets are for the .45 ACP pictols.

My defense ammo is Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots and for larger pistols, Bonded Remington 230-gr Golden Sabers... not to be confused with the ordinary Golden Sabers... BJHP... Brass Jacketed Hollow Points.

Wynn :)

[CJB]

I've noticed that the PM45 prefers exactly the opposite ammo that a tradtionally ramped Colt .45 Auto prefers. That is, the Colt .45 Auto prefers rather short cartridges, whilst the PM45 generally prefers the longest that will fit in the magazine.

[b4uqzme]

Did he say "whilst"? ;) I'm impressed.

[CJB]

Aw, don't get your knickers in a twist, the gf's from the UK! Obviously her vital bodily secretions have entered my thought stream!

[muggsy]

Guns are just like people. Some will eat anything and some are finicky. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. What that has to do with this post I'm not sure, but I'm told that it's a true statement. I've always fed my .45 what it prefers rather than what I prefer. I've also found that it's rather difficult to digest bullets. :)

[Rangemeister]

Thanks for the input, I was just curious if anyone had taken the time to see if measurements of a round in any way effected that rounds functionality or not. I already knew some guns just don't like some types of ammo. I think the 45 was designed to shoot the FMJ more so than the grain of the bullet. The 185 is becoming widely accepted and I remember using Black Talons 230 for self defense and feel a person should practice with the same grain bullet he/she intends to carry. :)

[wyntrout]

That's why I use the same weight bullets for everything, though I do buy 115-gr 9mm for the range... and I've still got some 165-gr .40 FMJ.

I had a Walther PPK/S and found that of the 2 available bullet weights, only one would hit POA. I can't remember now if it was the 90 or the 95 grain ones, but you have to find something that works for you and the pistol.

Wy :)

[gb6491]

Been out of the loop for awhile and just got my hands on a PM45 that is having some weird ammo issues. I have almost 200 rds of various rounds down range that includes WWB 185 and Federal American 185 JHP. No issues at all. I went to get some self defense ammo and could not find exactly what I was looking for so tried some Hornady 185 Critical defense. I loaded up the gun and before going to the range, I tried to hand cycle the stuff and the round would not extract! I had to find a good solid door casing and forced the slide to the rear. The same thing happened when I tried using some Triple K snap caps. I took several measurements and the diameter of the Federals and WWB was .460 near the bullet while the triple K snaps and Hornadys measured at .470. I did not realize the chamber of this PM45 was so finicky about .010 of an inch? Anyone have a similar experience and will the Hornady's extract under range conditions? I got a box of Federal 165 Hydro Schox and they cycle perfect and are by the way .460. The gun is new. Thanks for your input! PS- The PM45 has very manageable recoil using 185gr and a set of Talon grips!
I've had it happen with Hornady 230gr. XTP in my CW45. Here are my thoughts on it (taken from this thread: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?24552-scary-moment-at-the-range ):


Had the CW45 at the range today, along with a bunch of other stuff. Pulled the CW out to try the new Fiocchi XTP defense ammo I just bought. Magazine, rack it, doesn't go to battery. drop the mag, rack it. That round ejects, next one jams, solid. not into battery, slide will not move. Can't rack it, can't tap it into battery. I'm stuck with an inoperable pistol with a hot round almost into the chamber. Ended the range day. put it in a padded case. Locked it into the trunk. A quick 10 minute run to the gun shop/gunsmith. 5 minutes and $25 later, all is good again. Turns out, the cone on this round is too steep to go up the ramp. Shop said it's fairly common with this short a barrel pistol. It's a Horrandy XTP bullet in a Fiocchi case. Yes factory new rounds. Off tomorrow to see if the shop where I bought them will let me swap for core bon or golden saber. Oh yeah, actually dented the tip of the hollow point.
"Turns out, the cone on this round is too steep to go up the ramp. Shop said it's fairly common with this short a barrel pistol."
I doubt that's the case. From what you wrote earlier, "next one jams, solid. not into battery, slide will not move. Can't rack it, can't tap it into battery. I'm stuck with an inoperable pistol with a hot round almost into the chamber.", I'd guess that the XTP has engaged the barrel's rifling preventing the round from going into battery and also making it difficult to extract.

This can happen because of the round's overall length or because of the bullet's shape. We see this some in Kahr CW45s. IMO this is because they have a short amount of free bore/leade cut into the barrel. Here's a drawing to illustrate:
http://i42.tinypic.com/10fnptx.jpg
The top barrel has a short amount of free bore/leade in front of the chamber. I think it's pretty easy to see how some rounds might have a length or bullet that could contact the barrel's rifling when chambered.

As a quick test, remove the barrel and lightly drop a round into the chamber. The round should seat with the back of the case flush with or very slightly below the rear of the barrel hood: (image originally posted by John boy on SASS.net)
http://i58.tinypic.com/15d53ic.png
My guess is that your ammo will be slightly protruding (as in the far right above; the photo illustrates correct head spacing, but applies here).
If this is the case, I think you have about three options:
1. switch to an ammo that seats flush when you drop it into the chamber and operates correctly in your pistol.
2. Return it to Kahr for repair.
3. Have a local gunsmith ream the barrel to increase the "free bore".

I guess there's also a chance that your chamber is tight. If you can wiggle the round a little when it's in the chamber then I doubt this is an issue.

Abraxxas posted some excellent photos when he had a similar problem. In his case the free bore/leade was not cut evenly; you can see where he has adequate free bore/leade in the second photo and insufficient in the third:

I've read numerous posts online about Kahr's being picky about what ammo they will chamber and wont due to their tight chambers. I want to share what I found with mine tonight after I locked it up tight today on it's first trip to the range while attempting to chamber one of my target loads after 100rds of Remington factory ball ammo.

I pulled the barrel out for cleaning tonight and attempted to chamber some various ammo by dropping them in while holding the barrel. I found some dropped right in while others stopped short of fully chambering. This is easier than trying to pry my action open like I had to do at the range today I found that hollow points with a pronounced shoulder on them like Hornady XTP's and the Nosler Custom Competition 185's that I love to load so much for my other 45's were what caused the problem.

I took one that wouldnt chamber and dropped it in until it stopped and then grabbed the base of the shell with my fingers and twisted it back and forth about 90 deg while light pressing forward and pulled it out. The barrel is steel, the bullet jacket and shell case are soft metals so I knew the barrel/chamber should leave marks on the cartridge where it is hanging up. It was on the shoulder of the bullet as pictured below. On the left is a Nosler 185 handload and on the right is a Federal HydraShok. The Hydrashok drops right in, the Nosler does not... notice the difference in profiles close to the case mouth. The Hydrashok has a profile very similar to ball ammo until the top, so it chambers.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/Abraxxas/DSC_5811.jpg

Because the marks from me twisting the cartridge in the chamber are on the bullet and not the casing, I started to look at the barrel and not the chamber. The chamber is no tighter than than my other 45's just by feeling the amount of freeplay with a cartdridge fully chambered. Pictured below is the lead-in to the rifling in my barrel.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/Abraxxas/DSC_5804.jpg

It is a steeper angle than my other 45's, but not that much different... why is it touching the bullet before the cartridge is fully chambered I wondered? As Im staring at it scratching my head I noticed that the lead-in is not uniform. Pictured above is the left side of my barrel, pictured below is the right side of my barrel. Notice the difference in the angle of the bevel on the beginning of the rifling.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/Abraxxas/DSC_5803.jpg

THIS is why it will not chamber the bullets with a more pronounced shoulder profile. Is this considered defective? Normal? I dont know, this is my first Kahr. Perhaps some of you could take a look and see if your picky eater looks like this? I could get around this by changing the bullet seating depth of my target loads to work with this gun so Im not terribly concerned about it myself at this point. I did however want to share my findings because I've read a fair amount about folks having picky eaters that wont chamber certain types of ammo. Many of the threads on various forums/reviews seem to have the XTP style bullet causing the problems.

Brian

FWIW, my CW45 had this issue with Hornady 230gr. XTP. It happened with less frequency and became easier to clear as I put more rounds through the pistol, but I eventually bought a reamer and cut more free bore/leade into the barrel. Issue fixed.
http://i58.tinypic.com/rc7tc7.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/2ug2fbo.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/1zl9kdy.jpg
Regards,
Greg

BTW, gun papa posted a neat, easy to make tool for clearing this type of jam at the end of the thread I linked above.
Regards,
Greg

[Rangemeister]

Greg, your response may well be the most comprehensive report on a technical issue that I have ever read regarding a firearm. I looked into everything you posted and the info is spot on! I don't know if it is a manufacturing issue or not, but thank goodness I now have a detailed explanation of what is behind the problems I experienced. Thanks for the remarkable report and I will be restricting the use of certain ammo and keeping the "good" stuff close at hand! Thank sir!:amflag: