Front Sight Training?

[garyb]

Has anyone attended the Front Sight training in Nevada and if so, what did you train on (handgun, shotgun, rifle, knife, etc...) and what was your experience? Any members of Front Sight out there? I have their dry fire training manual and their web site looks convincing. Any input is welcome. Thanks.

www.frontsight.com (http://www.frontsight.com)

[TheTman]

I signed up for a 4 day defensive handgun course when they offered them for $69.00. Haven't gone yet, but looking forward to it. They seem pretty dedicated and knowledgable. I get the training reports they send out and they are full of good stuff. Some of it I don't pay attention too like blacking out the white dots on my sights, so that I'd concentate on the top edge of the front sight and not the dots. They claim after their 4 day course you're better prepared for an armed encounter than 90 percent of LEO's. No so sure about that, but they do have some cops on video talking about how much better the Front Sight training was than anything their department put them thru. I think any improvent I get, and any bad habits they help me drop will be well worth the cost.
Do you find the Dry Fire Practice Manual very helpful? Did it cause you to make any adjustments in your Dry Fire practice? I didn't order it, thought it a little pricey. Thought maybe I might get a better deal on it when I go to the course.
Hopefully someone has been there and can give us an opinion.

[garyb]

Hey themanski, Cool. I was wondering if anyone else heard about these folks at Front Sight. I got all of their reports via computer. Some were very good. We may take a trip out west sometime in the future in our RV and see some sights along the way. My wife agreed to take a course with me at Front Sight. We will see. I have a feeling they have pretty good stuff to share. Yea, I have the dry fire manual and have referred to it often. My buddy told me dry fire was key to good shooting. I've always fondeled my weapons to be more familiar. I guess I was dry fire practicing all along. The manual does cover some good stuff, but you are absolutely correct, it is too expensive for what you get. I'd wait until you take a course and get it then. I hope someone on the forum has attended their program and can share some things with us. Thanks for the reply.
Happy Holidays!

[TheTman]

Hey Gary, I did some research today on Front Sight, and most everyone agrees their training is very good, much of it based on Jeff Cooper's work, and other tried and true methods, such as SEAL manuals and various other things.
I did find some rather disturbing posts about the Management, and Dr. Piazza, such as they were either going into bankruptcy or perhaps have already filed for it. And some kind housing deal that fell thru. Lawsuits are going on. And Dr. Piazza took ideas from Jeff Cooper and SEAL manuals, and other's work, and recompiled it and called it his own ideas. I notice from the emails I get from Front Sight that Dr. Piazza does seem a little full of himself.
If you want to read some of the negative stuff I found it at Front Sight Training Institute- Membership scam? - IllinoisCarry.com (http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16895) and Front Site Gun Training $1000 Course for $100 - Stormfront (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t606405/)
I Googled such things as Front Sight Scam, F S Lawsuit, F S negative reviews, and I forget what all. Some folks are saying that the $69.00 course I paid for was a scam, then others chimed in and said it wasn't, so I guess I'll find out when I decide which class I want to enroll in. Kind of reading between the lines, it made me wonder if all these emails about discounted lifetime memberships was a way to keep the creditors at bay. Don't know, Don't really care as long as the place is there when I get a chance to get down there. The place is way to far away from me to even consider a membership.
I found nothing that actually said the training was bad, everyone seemed to agree you get very high quality training, most of the beefs were about the management and Dr. Piazza. One ex-marine had a beef with the management, but said the training was better than anything he had received in the service. I found a bunch of posts on various websites from folks really happy with the course they took.
So, I suppose if it's still there next spring I'll go ahead and take my 4 day defensive handgun course. If it makes me a quicker and more accurate shooter, and corrects whatever bad habits I've developed, then I'll be happy. I'm taking my Kahr CW40 as my primary weapon, since that's what I carry the most, and my Baretta Cougar .40 as a back up. They say to bring around 600 rounds of ammo for the 4 days, so should be pretty good workout for it. I've read other places that say you need more, I'll check that out when I enroll. I think they do a lot of firing until your gun is empty then changing mags (or use your speedloader if you have a revolver), and empty the mag again, and change mags again, so people with high capacity mags may need a lot more ammo. Whatever happens, I'll post how my CW40 performed and my overall impression of the place.
Sorry for the book, but just wanted to share what I found out.

[garyb]

Yes, I noticed that he is very full of himself, but then again I have experienced this with alot of folks teaching "their" way to shoot. In the CCW courses I've taken locally, the instructors easily spent 1/2 the time talking about themself and the other 1/2 on instruction. It may be normal.

I also noticed the repetitive special offers, last chance, limited time only, then we'll extend it due to the high demand, etc.... Kind of phony advertising. I can see where the management may be getting in a bind and may have overextended. I inquired about the RV sites and never heard a peep back. I tried to phone in an order and they would not accept it. I could only order on line and I explained that there was a security problem and I could not order on line. They wouldn't take the order on the phone no matter what. I wrote a letter of complaint and never received a reply.

They may have a good program and good instruction (I don't really know for sure), but I smell a dead fish somewhere and will stay clear until I talk to real live people that I know. It is all the way across country, so I am sure there are other excellent instruction programs in other locals.

Thanks for the feedback. It does not appear that others have any experience on these FrontSight folks.

[flynbenny]

I have a relative who is a Diamond member. He's a great shooter, and a Marine too.

I hate marketing hype. If you don't want me to buy something, keep hyping it and I won't. I asked him this question: "Is Front Sight as good as they claim it is in the ads?" He responed "It's better. Much better." He said the sales presenation they'll do on one of the days at lunch is a waste of time. But other than that, the lectures and on range instruction is first rate. He and his family have been out there a lot, watching his eyes and his boys' eyes light up as they talked about how much fun they had and how much they learned, made me want to jump in the car and head over there.

I am a Legacy Member now, and will be taking my first course this spring (2 day S/G) and will be doing 4 day H/G in the fall.

Would I buy into the condo project stuff? H e double hockey sticks no. But the instruction side? I think it's a good deal.

I'll be sure to make a full report after taking the courses.

[johnatw]

Garyb I took a three day course with Tactical Defense Institute in Southern Ohio. It was way more than $69, but really good. I also used the CW40, ran about 800 rounds thru it and was darn glad to put it away at the end of the course.

[garyb]

Cool. Thanks for the input and I would enjoy hearing about the training you receive at Front Sight. I enjoy the reports from Front Sight. Most are very educational. If interested go to www.frontsight.com (http://www.frontsight.com) and sign up for them by email. You'll get a TON of sales hype, but it is worth deleting them to read the educational materials, etc...

[jmk1138]

I read that its in Pahrump, not LV. So ... take a little extra cash with you, boys.

[jmk1138]

I've read a lot of his stuff, too. Nothing is revolutionary. That said, his training methods might be good. You cannot "master" a martial science, but you can master the study of it.

[garyb]

"Martial Science"...I'll need to think about that term in relation to the arts. Interesting expression.

[Longitude Zero]

Some neighbors (husband & wife) have taken a couple of their courses. They felt the course was good they agreed to ignore the advertisement hype.

They have taken other course with other named instructors and felt the FS was middle of the road. Not the worst and not the best they have experienced.

[jmk1138]

garyb,

"art" is open to interpretation and "science" is not. Science is not infallible, but it can be studied, explained, reproduced, improved upon, etc. by objective measures.

[hsart]

I am a Diamond member and have attended the 4 day Defensive Handgun course in 2009. First firearms school course I have had and I really enjoyed it as well as perfected my knowledge and abilities. I came home with much more confidence that I could handle home and family defense in day or nightime situations. Shot around 800 rounds as I had a Glock 19 with 6 mags and a speedloader. Lots of different exercises, including one on one contests, night shooting, etc. Just bought memberships for my kids. This place is for real, though a lot of negative posts on the internet mostly due to the incessant marketing hype. Their idea I think is to create value for the business by having a huge membership, mailing lists, email lists, etc., in order to get financing for the development of the site with a hotel and other amenities. The instructors I had were top notch, though they do a lot of hiring and have added a tremendous number of courses since I was there. Highly recommended... try to get a membership on the cheap from one of their specials which run regularly.

[garyb]

jmk1138,
I understand the difference between art and science and this is why I questioned the term "martial science". I believe I know the WAY. Having been a martial artist for over 25 yrs and continuing my training today in the handgun, I appreciate that any artist loses skill if the artist does not train and practice. I would have to say that to imply that there is a martial science would suggest that once you study and have it, you can always reproduce and improve upon it, merely though continuous study, but without continued training and practice. In an art, you must do it, to learn the way. Doing it only by training and practice, not through study alone. I know that martial arts are a degrading art and without continuous training and practice, you lose the skill. I believe this is the distinction between study in a science and training in an art. Study is not enough. In the Martial Arts, study is not enough. The Martial Arts WAY is not acquired merely through study. One can not merely teach and learn to acquire these skills. The WAY is only achieved through hard work and repetitive training and practice. This is the distinction between an ART and a science, as in the martial arts. Read this in the book about Master Tesshu, in "The Sword of No Sword" and you will understand the WAY.

[jmk1138]

Doing and teaching are different. I prefer to learn from persons who having teaching methods based on the ability to test, examine, reproduce and improve upon. I prefer not to learn from persons who say, "I've done this before and this is how it works." Some of the greatest do-ers are horrible teachers (look at pro sports).

I agree with you about practice. This is why I say you cannot "master" the science, but only the study of it. I don't really care if the teacher can do it anymore. I don't. In the movies, the teacher is always an old guy and the fighter is a young guy. I don't know of any football players that respect Bill Parcells less because Parcells can't make a tackle or run a 4.4 second 40. If "doing" and "teaching" were equivalent, 20-year old corporals would be running the military. I'm not looking so much at what this guy can (or could, in the past) do, but what his students can do.

So, when I'm looking for instruction, I'm looking for scientific methods. Back to my point, despite all the cheesy advertising (and "never to be seen again" specials), this program does seem to incorporate known teaching methods and may (may, I don't know) have developed a good methodology thus resulting in a thorough (at least today) study of the science.

[hsart]

FWIW, Frontsight is a huge proponent of dry practice (and range practice as well). They stress this time and time again during the four day Defensive handgun course I took in '09. I did well in every part except that which I did not dry practice either at home or at Frontsight.

[garyb]

jmk1138, If you get a chance, read the book, "Sword of No Sword" about Master Tesshu. It may explain some things about the WAY. But I understand where you are coming from.



Frontsight is a huge proponent of dry practice...


Dry fire is key. Some feel that dry fire is boring because they need to hear the gun go "bang". Without it shooting accurately can be a challenge. It is swinging the sword. Dry fire is KEY! Front Sight training or no Front Sight training.

[jmk1138]

garyb,

I've read the books. I don't particularly care for them, but I understand where you're coming from, too. At least we both agree on practicing.

[garyb]

jmk1138,
Basically that is the reason that I posed the question about Front Sight's training. It is all about training when it comes to the arts....both martial arts and the shooting arts. Both are arts and sports. But science? No way. You are a martial artist and if you read the book I referred you to, (wheter you care for them or not) you would realize that it is NOT solely about technique or tactics. It is about training...good repetitive training. It sounds like Front Sight offers this. I enjoyed the dialog and thanks for the input folks.