Kel-Tec PF9 Vs Kahr PM9

[LatinGunNut]

Just got a new PM9

Have not fired it yet, but planning on doing so soon.
Here are the issues I've seen without shooting the gun:

1) First issue I see is the 6 rd mag not dropping freely. The 7 rd does drop. This is annoying. Mags should drop free so removing them is a one hand operation.
The other hand should be used to reach for the new mag and insert it in the mag well.

2) Slide is too hard to rack. I don't see how after 200 rounds it will loosen to a degree that is practical.

I own an Kel-Tec PF9. The Kahr wins in craftsmanship and quality of materials, but the Kelt-Tec wins in ergonomics and firepower.

Let's see how they compare after shooting them side by side.

[jocko]

wow even ergonomics. shows me you have not done much home work. u should stay with the kel tec. course what the hell do I know, I only owned 3 kel tecs and had to send them all back a total of 17 times. Other than that a great gun...

u should have certainly done some checking before plumking down good money for a gun that already you have criticized the hell out of and YOU HAVEN'T EVEN SHOT IT YET. Welcome tothe forum for how ever long you stay???

[Bawanna]

Take your meds Jocko. Too much vino last night?

Give the poor lad a chance.

[jocko]

PROBABLY RIGHT!! I just hate stupidity though!~!!

[BEARDOG]

LOL...You should send that POS PM9 to me for proper disposal...:rolleyes:

[Bill K]

Welcome to Kahrtalk!

I hope the PM9 works out for you and earns a place within your carry system.

I own 2 Kel-Tecs, both P3ATs and like them very much. I'm even a Grand Poobah over at KTOG. I did however, after a lot of consideration going back and forth, choose the PM9 over the PF9. Like so many choices we make there are pros and cons, pluses and minuses to one choice over another.

[CPO15]

To the OP: Jocko got up on the wrong side of the bed, he's a pretty helpful guy overall. Follow the Kahr prep thread in the Kahr-Tech forum, manually rack the slide a few hundred times as well. The mag will drop, use it while watching the games today (I used some paste floor wax on mine and they FLY out now).

I hated my pf9: the PM9 is everything I wanted the KelTec to be but wasn't.

Welcome to the forum, give us a chance.

[MW surveyor]

Welcome and just go out and shoot it and give us a report.

[bonjorno2]

Welcome to the site....

[kpm9]

Welcome Latingunnit.

Ergos can be somewhat subjective and particular to the user. If you think the KT feels better than it does for you.

[LatinGunNut]

Just got a new PM9

Have not fired it yet, but planning on doing so soon.
Here are the issues I've seen without shooting the gun:

1) First issue I see is the 6 rd mag not dropping freely. The 7 rd does drop. This is annoying. Mags should drop free so removing them is a one hand operation.
The other hand should be used to reach for the new mag and insert it in the mag well.

2) Slide is too hard to rack. I don't see how after 200 rounds it will loosen to a degree that is practical.

I own an Kel-Tec PF9. The Kahr wins in craftsmanship and quality of materials, but the Kelt-Tec wins in ergonomics and firepower.

Let's see how they compare after shooting them side by side.

I'm sure I'll be fine with the gun, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that my expectations were too high. For a relatively expensive gun I should not expect to have any problems.

But based on your responses I see some of you are offended. I'm sure I'd like it.

PS

I did the 500 rack thingy. Maybe it's smoother, or I'm stronger after all that excersise :)

[jeepster09]

:eek: I was able to make my Kal Tec cost as much as a Kahr.....

[RUT]

>>I did the 500 rack thingy.<<

Rather than do that, I shot mine 300 times. It was much more enjoyable. :p

[TheTman]

Welcome LatinGunNut. I think if you give the PM9 a chance, and give it a good breaking in, you'll take a liking to it. I considered a PF9 but ended up with a CW40. I like the added punch the .40 gives you. The guns were very close in size, the PF9 being a bit slimmer. I did a lot of research on both guns before making my purchase, and there seemed to be a great deal more negative reviews on the PF9 with many trips back to the factory, than on the Kahrs. Of course every gun has problems here and there, but the Kel-Tec just seemed to have way more bad press than the Kahr's did. Hell you'd never buy a gun if you took all the bad press to heart. At least Kel-Tec, (and Kahr) has excellant customer service. The Kahrs have very tight tolerances from the factory, and really need a good breaking in before you trust your life to one. I've been spending my spare time racking the slide on my CW45 waiting until Monday to get to the range, weekends being such a madhouse, while Monday mornings many times you're the only one shooting.

[kahrseye]

I owned a PF9 and the only gun that shot worse than it was it's .32 cal brother. I don't care for the Keltecs. I think you're going to love the PM9. It shoots straight and carries like a dream, whether pocket carrying or otherwise. Good luck with yours and welcome to the asylum.

[recoilguy]

The only gun I have ever shot that hurt my hand and I hated shooting was a Kel Tec. The Kahr is by far the superior gun. Good Luck with your new weapon.

RCG

[GadsdenGalt]

There is no way the original poster was being serious.

The PF9 is THE WORST HANDGUN I have ever shot. My hands prefer wasp stings to firing a kel-tec, the trigger has the smoothness of a nutcracker, and there are happy meal toys put together with more care. My little brother has one because he is a broke college student that cannot easily conceal his full size M&P. His poverty does not excuse his purchase of the kel-tec.

I can shoot my Pm9 all day long. Even high pressure ammo is not a problem. I would rather gather the bullets shot from my pm9 and throw them than shoot any keltec. They are garbage. Guns are important, why anyone outside of a poor person in immediate danger would purchase a kel-tec is beyond me.

[RUT]

Now don't sugar coat it... tell us how you really feel!! :p

[jocko]

damn: gadsdengalt. u took the worrds right out of my mouth. glad I didn't say that though, as I would have had a pm from one of the mods for sure. I kinda draw someones attention..

why sugar coat it?? huh..

[Bawanna]

I wanted to say the same thing but I probably would have had to put myself on 30 day hiatus and what would you guys do without me to harass, take your jabs, and generally be myself.

Friends don't let friends carry Kel Tec's.

[LatinGunNut]

There is no way the original poster was being serious.

The PF9 is THE WORST HANDGUN I have ever shot. My hands prefer wasp stings to firing a kel-tec, the trigger has the smoothness of a nutcracker, and there are happy meal toys put together with more care. My little brother has one because he is a broke college student that cannot easily conceal his full size M&P. His poverty does not excuse his purchase of the kel-tec.

I can shoot my Pm9 all day long. Even high pressure ammo is not a problem. I would rather gather the bullets shot from my pm9 and throw them than shoot any keltec. They are garbage. Guns are important, why anyone outside of a poor person in immediate danger would purchase a kel-tec is beyond me.

When you can't explain why people do something is usually because you are wrong; unless you are smarter than all those people.

[Willieboy]

Never shot a PF9 and don't have a dog in this race. Welcome to KahrTalk and enjoy both your guns.

[jocko]

One should not just judge a kahr or a kel tek based on hear-say. If you owned one and had issues, then IMO it qualifies you to call either one a POS. I feel my comments made either way are just that--MY COMMENTS One can refute them, that is the way the game works. Probably shold not be bashing kel teks anyway oh this forum or any other gun. Many are pleased with kel teks. they have sold hundreds of thousands of their tiny little guns, At one time they were the only kid on the block and most of us were kinda forced into them. Some never had any issues as far as going bang. They are not a pleasant gun to shoot, nor do they have a trigger worth a darnn either, but they are what they are a $300 gun that will normally (today) go bang and save your life. Some still swear by them, also some still swear at them. We have seen on this forum kahrs called POS, so we are not immune either. No doubt some kahrs are indeed POS. I never felt like a kahr should be compred to a kel tek or vice versa. A kahr is about 2.5 price points above a kel tek, It better be a better gun all around. Going bang is just one part of a great gun as we all well know. Threre is no comparision IMO between a kahr and a kel teck . You get what you pay for (most of the time) and if just going bang is all that matters, then $300 for a kel teck is a great buy. With the many sub 9's out there today and sub 380's I have no doubt that the kel teck today is far down the line of the great selling gun they once was...

[Narkcop]

I owned a Kel-Tec and it was a POS. FTF,FTE,double feed. You name it (Malfunctions) and it did it. I don't think I should have to fluff and buff a defensive firearm to get it to MAYBE work. My PM9 and LC9 both functioned perfect right out of the box. I even shot steel case russian ammo thru the LC9.

[jocko]

there u go. I forgot the ol FLUFF AND BUFF thing. I think that saying was invented on the kel tek forum to, along with their phrase. SHOOT SELDOM AND CARRY OFTEN. Like you I had tons of issues with my 3 kel teck. sent all 3 back a total of 17 times before I couold get them reliable enough to sel lthem off, broken barrel lugs, cracked slides , recopil springs coming out the front of the slide,major major stuff. There turn around time on service was from 4 to 8 weeks, never faster than that, at least forme they were not. The time that I owned the 3 kel teks, my guns were in at their factory more than the actual time they wer ehome with me, but like I stated, they were the only game in town back then. One thing I was confused about was that the alloy frame had the serial jumber on them and I ahve been told by federal law that a serial number is born and eis with that exact gun. It cannot re redulicated. Ihad two frames competely repoaced in my kel teks and they just restamped the same serial jumber on it. Not sure how they got by with that either, . ...

Narkcop. I feel and felt your pain back then to.

[O'Dell]

I bought a P-11 about five years ago. I thought that it's size and capacity would make an excellent carry pistol. I hadn't counted on the worst trigger I've ever felt. It was so long and heavy, I could have lit a cigarette when I started pulling the trigger and finished before the gun fired. I sold it! Then I heard the the PF-9 had a much better trigger, so I bought one. It did have a better trigger [one from the P38T I hear], but it was so ammo sensitive that I never knew whether it was going to shoot or not. Not ideal in a carry pistol. I sold it!

Then I bought a CW9 which was just a hair bigger the the PF, had a decent trigger, and always fired when I pulled the trigger. I've since had two more Kahrs with a fourth on the way, and never had a problem with any of them. I don't know about the original poster, but I've made my decision about the two brands.

BTW, the PM9 is quite a bit smaller than the PF-9, and will fit just about any pocket.

[O'Dell]

As will the PM40 for us .40 S&W fans. :D

Yeah, I know, but I have 1500 rounds of 9mm, with nothing much to shoot it, so I got the 9.

[Bill K]

Shoot a little carry a lot? Simple solution, buy two - one for practice and one for carry. The one you carry could save your butt.

Bill K.

[jocko]

good for u. I at one time owned 3 of them, seemed one was always back at the factory, so I had a spare to my carry peace then..

[O'Dell]

Makes sense to me. :)

Following the same logic, before ponying up for the PM40, I almost bought PM45 at a local gun show. It was a bargain at $525 and would have gone well with our stock pile of .45 ACP. But, it did not fit in my pocket. :(

That's the reason I chose the PM9 [other than the ammo] rather than get another PM45. I have plenty of 45ACP. I do have three 40's now, a compact M&P, Small and light and a great shooter; a S&W 4043, accurate but a hard trigger pull; and a HK USP 40, almost the perfect pistol.

I shot the HK a week ago Friday. The mags hold 14 so it takes a while to go through one. On the third reload of the two mags, I released the slide and pulled the trigger; click; I reached up and cocked it and again, click. My first thought was " this is an HK and they never fail". Then I glanced down at the counter and saw two loaded mags! Even an HK won't shoot with no ammo.

[Willieboy]

I guess people have had different experiences with Kel-Tecs. I've owned a P11 for years and it's been a nice little pistol. It's been reliable and accurate with good firepower for a pistol its size. I have had Teddy Jacobson, owner of Actions by T, do action/trigger jobs on a couple of my guns, one revolver and one pistol. I thought enough of the P11 to ask Teddy to look over the P11 and perform his magic on the gun. Teddy would not even consider working on a Kel-Tec, so low was his opinion of Kel-Tecs. They were not worth his time.

When It came time to invest in a single stack nine, I thought about the PF9, but Teddy's words kept ringing in my ears. So, I ponied up the cash for the PM9 and with Jocko's help and several hundred rounds of ammo, I believe I have a reliable pistol.

As an aside, and for what it's worth, Teddy also warned me off Smith and Wesson guns. He does a great deal of work on guns for local police officers and he does not like what he sees when he opens up a S&W.

[LatinGunNut]

I guess people have had different experiences with Kel-Tecs. I've owned a P11 for years and it's been a nice little pistol. It's been reliable and accurate with good firepower for a pistol its size. I have had Teddy Jacobson, owner of Actions by T, do action/trigger jobs on a couple of my guns, one revolver and one pistol. I thought enough of the P11 to ask Teddy to look over the P11 and perform his magic on the gun. Teddy would not even consider working on a Kel-Tec, so low was his opinion of Kel-Tecs. They were not worth his time.

When It came time to invest in a single stack nine, I thought about the PF9, but Teddy's words kept ringing in my ears. So, I ponied up the cash for the PM9 and with Jocko's help and several hundred rounds of ammo, I believe I have a reliable pistol.

As an aside, and for what it's worth, Teddy also warned me off Smith and Wesson guns. He does a great deal of work on guns for local police officers and he does not like what he sees when he opens up a S&W.

Just check any of the hundreds of reviews online and I've never heard any of the famous online gun reviewers say that Kel-Tecs are junk.

In the case of the PF9, the first generation had many problems, which is what many of you may remember, but all those issues were resolved 3-4 years ago.

Mine had one failure to eject during the break in period. It has around 600-700 rds and never had any problems.

To defend the qualities of the PM9 there is no need to bash others.

[GadsdenGalt]

When you can't explain why people do something is usually because you are wrong; unless you are smarter than all those people.

I am new here and I like it so I have not, and will not author any sort of insult or personal attack. I am sure you are a swell fellow and now you own a proper weapon. :D

People on certain parts of the planet fancy a roll in the hay with goats. I do not understand this and I think I am correct not to. Perhaps intimate goat companionship is like keltec ownership, it does not seem so bad if you do not know the sheer joy of the alternatives.


Shooting a good firearm is right up there with riding a motorcycle and non goat intimate companionship.

[Willieboy]

Yikes Latin guy, tranquillo man. I wasn't bashing Kel-Tecs. I thought I said I liked my P11. However, if Teddy Jacobson, a famous pistolman, who has worked on thousands of pistols over many years, says he has concerns about Kel-Tecs build quality, I tend to listen. That said though, I still have my P11 and still carry it occassionally. I just steered away from the PF9 in favor of the PM9.

The PM9 has been no box of candy either. Kahr has their problems too, in trying to field a reliable handgun. If I have better feelings about Kahr guns than Kel-Tecs it's because I believe Kel-Tecs were dsigned from the get go, to be an inexpensive pistol using inexpensive materials and maybe inexpensive manufactuting methods. That's okay though because the buyer knows, or he should know, what he is buying and why it costs less than other guns of the same size and caliber.

I think Kahr, on the other hand, is trying to produce guns for people with two pesos to rub together. They are trying to produce guns to compete with companies like Glock and Sig.... at least I think that's what they're trying to do.

I'm new to Kahr guns and bought what I did because I liked the design. I'm not yet sure they are producing a top quality handgun, even though their prices are quite high. We all know they have problems with their magazines, have difficulty functioning with 9mm bullets heavier than 115 grains and, and this is a big concern for me, a quick perusal of the MK forums reveals numerous instances of cracked components. Cracked components suggests to me Kahr is casting major components and for what we pay for a Kahr firearm, I would have expected forgings. To my knowledge, only Ruger has mastered the investment casting process. I've had cast frames crack on me in the past and hope Kahr is doing a better job, though from what I've read, they are not. AND, why the heck does the six round magazine hang out the bottom of the frame on a gun designed for concealed, or even pocket carry? What's that about? Shorten the magazine or lengthen the frame Kahr. This isn't rocket science!

So, as I said in my firt post in this thread, I hope you enjoy both your guns and I hope they serve you well.

[Willieboy]

People on certain parts of the planet fancy a roll in the hay with goats. I do not understand this and I think I am correct not to. Perhaps intimate goat companionship is like keltec ownership, it does not seem so bad if you do not know the sheer joy of the alternatives.


Good stuff. Very cerebral!

[Bawanna]

I think we just need to remember that we're all sharing opinions. Beauty is to the eye of the beholder and all that stuff.

I knew a fellow that lived and breathed Makarov's. Carried one for protection, had several of them. Fluff and buff extrodinaire. He knew em inside and out. They were dirt cheap at the time and all over the place.
Not for me. I didn't even want one for a keep in the truck in case it gets stolen gun but they filled a niche.

Because I have little use for something doesn't mean it can't be somebody elses favorite. Guess we all have different experiences.

I frequently bash too quickly, I'm terribly not PC and sometimes my fingers and my mouth outrun my brain and restraint capabilities.

Thin skin has no place on the internet and I sometimes have thin skin too.

Don't get to worked up about opinions I guess.

[jocko]

when we can';t voice our opinions on this forum, IMO it is time to move on. Personally if you love kel teks then shoot um like you stole it. I can only relate my experience and they were all very very bad for over 4 years of ownership. Mine were junk, ain't no other way of saying it. Are they better today??? Probably so, for back then they could get no worse. Brag on them if you want or brag on your Makarov also. that is again your right and opinion, People basch Kahrs on other gun forums about like kel teks.

i have no doubt if you went from a kel tek to a kahr you have certainly upgraded yourself, now can your kahr be a problem child, we know it can.

I had one kel tek back younder that I put alot of money into what I called custom work becuase I just wanted to and at that time loved that little gun. Accurate Iron, ported it, did an action job (which u can't really do much to them at all, they are what they are in that category), They did a super refinish job, really looked nice and custom. Less than a month after I got all that work done the slide was so weak up fron that the recoil springs ate right through the slide and popped out the front of the slide. I lost a bundle of custom money with that episode. It just didn't bode well with me and I should have known better to put alot of mooney in a $250 gun. Lessons learned... Probably ought to have a special thread on ths fourm called the bashing thread, and that is where this kel tec and others and posters who want to basch it can post till hell freezes over. In defense of the kel tek somewhst, Ruger just copied their 380 and caught alot of hell over it to and they paid the price to as they had to recall 50,000 of them due to safety defects. I give credit to kahr on their P380, they only copied their own design the pM9. I had to send my Ruge lcp back once when I had it and their turn around was fantastic, less than 2 weeks from the time it left my home to returnng. It was never good with kel teck , at least 4 to 8 weeks to get a gun in and back. That was just the way it was back then, not sure how it is now, No one wants to buy an gun and have to send it back but certainly they also don't want to wait 2 months to get it back, There are some high dollar gun makers who are even slower.

I love my kahrs, at one time I loved my kel teks to. I am not married to any of them. If they don't perform as designed and the service doesn't make um work right, I will peddle my kahrs as fast as I did my kel teks. there are alot of good guns out on the market today to get upset over one or two bad events There are people who just hate the kahrs looooooong trigger system. It is harder to master, no doubt, IMO u ain't gonna shoot one hole groups either. We certainly have not seen that on this forum but maybe once or twice, so if a person buys a kahr and is not happy with the shooting experience, he should iMO sell it, trade it and find what he likes better Not rocket science. I own a Ruger lcp, it is a good gun but it was just like my kel tek to, I could not hit jack **** with it, now my P380 when I got it, i really expected no better from it based on my past experience with two other brands of 380's, but this P380 will shoot circles around my previous 380's. Amazingly accurate. I give some credit to having actual sights on the gun to but thre trigger system as looooong and smooth as it was , just was a better gun all around. BUT it had to go back once to kahr also.

[deadhead1971]

:popcorn:

I have been enjoying this one with detached amusement. I don't have a kel-tec. Wait. I have a ruger LCP, and it looks [almost] like a kel tec. :)

To the Latingunnut - You can, but I don't hand rack my slide to chamber the first round. I use the procedure in the owner's manual--works every time. I keep it loaded so I don't have to worry about chambering a round in an emergency situation. Therefore, the PM9 can be tight. If you try to hand rack the slide to chamber the first round, the top round may nose dive on the feed ramp. Just use the method in the manual.

I have an "old" PM9 from 2009, and the mags drop free. Some have reported the mags not dropping in the newer models..not sure why.

[recoilguy]

To defend the qualities of the PM9 there is no need to bash others.

Relaying personal experiance is not bashing, it may feel like bashing to someone who is.....trying to feel good about their purchase or other reasons I am sure , but it is not.

I liken it to hold a cheese grater with a fire ******* under it and it would feel like a I was shooting a Kel Tec.

Cg

[recoilguy]

Really......... Crac ker is auto editted?

CG

[jocko]

Really......... Crac ker is auto editted?

CG

u know this is also a religious forum to, what the fokk is the matter with you???? U can' tprint words like that:D:D:D

[Willieboy]

God is watching you Jocko.

[bonjorno2]

I guess people have had different experiences with Kel-Tecs. I've owned a P11 for years and it's been a nice little pistol. It's been reliable and accurate with good firepower for a pistol its size. I have had Teddy Jacobson, owner of Actions by T, do action/trigger jobs on a couple of my guns, one revolver and one pistol. I thought enough of the P11 to ask Teddy to look over the P11 and perform his magic on the gun. Teddy would not even consider working on a Kel-Tec, so low was his opinion of Kel-Tecs. They were not worth his time.

When It came time to invest in a single stack nine, I thought about the PF9, but Teddy's words kept ringing in my ears. So, I ponied up the cash for the PM9 and with Jocko's help and several hundred rounds of ammo, I believe I have a reliable pistol.

As an aside, and for what it's worth, Teddy also warned me off Smith and Wesson guns. He does a great deal of work on guns for local police officers and he does not like what he sees when he opens up a S&W.

i never have had a issue with my pf9 or p3at or p32 after the factory break in or a trip down the road to where they are built.... If you don't have the time or patience to get your carry gun in top shape before you carry i suggest buying a revolver or a glock.

[jocko]

if a glock fit in my front pocket like my PM9 does, I would carry a glock, unfortunatley they are what they are, even their so called sub compacts are big guns by kahr standards and other makers to.

can't say to much bad about glock, we sold um for years, MineG19 shoots almost in the same hole. That being said, glock over the years has made more internal design changes than any gun on the market. so lets not kid ourselves, they give issues and they in the past gave some issues ..

[Chuck54]

I like my PM9 a LOT

[jeepster09]

I like puddin.....:001_huh:

[Bawanna]

I like Angels with nice ankles.

[O'Dell]

i never have had a issue with my pf9 or p3at or p32 after the factory break in or a trip down the road to where they are built.... If you don't have the time or patience to get your carry gun in top shape before you carry i suggest buying a revolver or a glock.

That's a bit harsh. I've only been shooting pistols for 40+ years and I have a pretty good idea how to prep a gun. I can also determine if a gun goes bang when the trigger is pulled - my PF9 didn't a large part of the time. Even KelTec fans admit the early production pistols had issues and mine was one of those.

If it makes you feel better I have an LCP which is pretty close to a P3AT, and it works fine. I also just acquired a a late P32 on a trade and if it works as expected, I will give it to a female friend.

As far as your suggestion about a revolver or Glock, no thanks. Been there, done that years ago, and didn't like it.

[GadsdenGalt]

i never have had a issue with my pf9 or p3at or p32 after the factory break in or a trip down the road to where they are built.... If you don't have the time or patience to get your carry gun in top shape before you carry i suggest buying a revolver or a glock.


I think you have misinterpreted the hatred some of the intelligent gentlemen here have for keltecs. I clean every one of my guns after every time I shoot them. I love shooting and I enjoy cleaning my guns. Firearm related time is not a burden, it is therapeutic. I imagine I am not alone with this so it is not an issue of spending time with a carry gun.

Most people would agree that sending rounds downrange for practice is vital to prepare for the situation we pray we never have to face. I love my Kahrs. I enjoy every round I put through them and I shoot very often as a result. I think it is beneficial to practice as much as possible with the guns I will carry each day. If a keltec is all someone can afford I understand that. But I refuse to pretend that keltecs are nice weapons.