About to give up on my PM9...need help

[Strikefire83]

Okay, so the short version of the story is that I have a Kahr PM9 with a shade over 1,000 rounds through it, and the gun has functioned flawlessly since the break in period.

No problem, right? Well, not really. See the issue is I just don't shoot the gun very well. At 7 yards I can get golf ball sized groups with my Glock 17 and quarter sized groups with my CZ-75. And I've gotten to the point with my little S&W 638 j-frame where I can keep all my shots within a small paper plate firing as fast as I can at 7 yards. But after 1k rounds, I'm still shooting sh!t with my kahr pm9. Basically, at 7 yards with the Kahr, its all I can do to keep all of my shots within a 12" x 12" target. The situation is detailed here:

When to give up on a gun? - THR (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=493046)

Basically, I'm about at the end of my rope. It's been a good gun in terms of reliability, but I just can't seem to get used to the trigger. I'm used to shooting DAO with my Glock, and I'm used to single action with my CZ, and I'm used to the trigger on my revolver, but the PM9 trigger is just plain weird. Really loooooooooooooong mushy takeup at the beginning, travel in the middle, and then it just BREAKS...and damned if even after 1k rounds I'm never exactly sure when it's going to break.

I owned a K9 that had a much better trigger, so I'm wondering if this is a function of polymer or what. Please help, I hate to sell a working gun that conceals well, but if I can't shoot the GD thing well, none of that matters.

[PaiN]

Don't sweat it.....some guns just aren't a good fit.
I had a Keltec PF9 for almost two years...I wanted keep that gun badly, inexpensive, 100% reliable and a cinch to conceal, but because of the awful trigger and small grip I could never get decent aim with it I even tried a CT laser. I eventually gave up on it and ended up with a Kahr CW9 which is a great fit for me and bullets go where I want them too out of it :) I'm happy I stopped fighting a losing battle with the PF

[varoadking]

It could be the piece. I sent my PM45 back to Kahr for a check-up. I am quite accurate with my other 3 Kahr's, but this one, not so much...

Consider sending it back...

[ltxi]

Looks like you got some pretty good advice on trigger control and anticipating the break on the other forum. I'd take it and work at it a bit more before you give up.

However, your PM9 trigger shouldn't be much, if any different than that of your K9. PM9/K9/MK9....all three of mine are exactly the same.

I also own Glocks and like them less.....so, each to his own as well.

[Strikefire83]

Thanks for the input guys.

I'm thinking the main difference between the K9 and my PM9 is the polymer vs steel issue. Perhaps the extra weight of the steel is the difference in my shot-to-shot accuracy. I don't know, there's really NO small 9mm pocket pistol like the Kahr PM9 and MK9 in size except the rohrbaugh and i have no interest in a $1500 pocket pistol with a heal release that can't shoot +p ammo.

Perhaps the MK9 with a trigger job??

[jocko]

I have over 25,000+ rounds out of my PM9 and to say I can shoot golf ball groups at 15 yards, I cannot. At 10 yards I cannot at 5 yards I can. All my shots are always inside the FBI style "Q:" target at 15 yards and under that is what I bought and carry this gun for, . I can shoot at 15 yards golf ball size groups with my G19 all day long. It is just dead nuts accurate BUT it is all in the diffferent trrigger systems of the two guns. Kahrs triggers IMO are about as true as a DA revolver as any gun on the market. If you can shoot a DA revolver accurate at 15 yards (golf balls groups) then you can do it with a kahr also. I certainly was no better with my Model 60 Smith or #342 than I am with my PM9.

Many kahr owners and many past kahr owner have alwasy felt the kahr was not the easiest gun to shoot golf ball groups with and they are right. Those that can, are super good shooters, and my hat is off to them also. Some people need a gun that MAKES THEM A BETTER SHOOTER. kahrs are not that. But for me this is my 24/7 pocket carry gun, it is with me all the time. It has never let me down in all those rounds either. My G19 as great as it is sits at home ready to go but it is at home, not on me 24/7. THAT IS THE BIG DIFFERENCE OF A KAHR OVER DAMN NEAR ANY GUN OUT THERE.

So you can get frustrated and blame the gun, or yourself, it is what it is. A not so easy gun to shoot golf ball groupls with. I feel I shoot my kahr about as good as 75% of kahr owners. I have shot with kahr owners and they are like you and I. If kahrs had a glock type trigger or a Smith M & P trigger on it, it would have to have some type of safety, i. e. maybe trigger like glocks and smiths. It is one of the simpliest made semi's on the market. Look at your kahr lower section and then look at your glock or CZ lower section. There is no comparison.

You have to either accept the fact that your kahr is not a target gun but will shoot in the same hole with the right shooter behind it, or work closer at shooting good groups that will save your life, or maybe best to sell it. There is nothing wrong with the gun. If your CZ had a 3/8" trigger pull and by the way your K9 had a 1/2" trigger pull, so I ain't buying it was much better,, except for the trigger distance , THEY ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. What you noticed was an all steel frame versus an ultra lightweight polymer frame. There is a difference.

I own a K9 and shoot if some what better but no golf ball groups. but I am 66 and I wear bifocals and no excuses from me, I have shot for 50 years and quite frankly was never a good shooter...

You have a good gun but like some have stated, it may not be for you..

by the way Merry Christmas

[n0igu]

The problem is it has a short barre land is short itself WHICH IT DESIGNED TO BE. It isn't designed for sniping across parking lots but to hide easily.

[jocko]

The problem is it has a short barre land is short itself WHICH IT DESIGNED TO BE. It isn't designed for sniping across parking lots but to hide easily.

so so correct you are:)

[WVleo]

Hi, Not sure what Your ammo selection has been, but I have a diverse pattern at 7 yards using WWB 115gr. or Blazer Brass 115gr. all hits mind You but still a very diverse pattern. I load My carry rounds Speer GD 124gr+P and the groups tighten up considerably . Probally the size of My fist as I don't measure . It could be just My plinking mentality with the practice rounds and concentrating more with the carry ammo, but I really feel this pistol shoots better for Me using My Gold Dots +P . Just a thought. Another opinion is this, I hear great things about the Glock 19, but it just won't shoot for Me with My grip. Maybe the Kahr PM9 and You don't fit . But if You really like the gun and want to try all options, send it in to Kahr and see if it's the issue . If it comes back from Kahr and You are still not happy with Your ability with the pistol I would move on and fine something that works for You and Your shooting style. If 1 size fit all, there would only be 1 gun. Good luck with it anyways as if You ever get to where You can shoot the Kahr it's a nice CCW piece.......WVleo

[Strikefire83]

Jocko, it would helpful if you were to fully read a post before responding to it. I've never blamed the gun. In fact, I'm happy to report the gun has run flawlessly AFTER the 200 round break-in period period, fed exclusively on about 800 rounds of affordable Winchester personal protection 115gr JHPs. I don't "blame" anything on the gun. If you clean the gun every 150 rounds or so, keep the points lubed, and load/reload from slide-lock it runs just fine.

And yes, I owned a used "Lady" K-9 for about 2 years and put 100s and 100s of trouble free rounds through that gun too, with much better accuracy. The gun did feel/shoot much differently. Whether that was a function of it being a steel gun rather than polymer, it's being a "lady" K, or longer grip I don't know.

I really don't want to get rid of a working gun that conceals so well, so I'll continue to train with it. I'll give it another 500 rounds or so, and if I don't have acceptable combat accuracy (to me) at 7 yards than it will get sold. Period. My carry gun at this moment continues to be my Smith and Wesson 638 j-frame that I've gotten proficient with and is eminently reliable of course.

[Wayne's World]

I love the DA on the PM9 but my wife hates it. The "too long of a pull" throws her off. I would prefer for her to get a Kahr but she has to carry it so we'll keep looking.

[jocko]

they are certainly not the gun for everyone, Unless one has some real shooting knowledge, and prior experience with a semi, again the kahr might not be for them. I accept the fact that I can't shoot 2" groups with mine at 10 yards, but I can hold um all in the FBI "Q" target silhouette at 15 yards and under. they might be allover that target area to but they are there, so I am confident with it but the most important thing for me is that this is my 24/7 carry peace, and no matter how accurate I am with my G19 over my PM9, my G19 is relegated to home use and range time. I pocket carry my PM9 24/7 and do not dress to do so..

[Parasite]

I really don't want to get rid of a working gun that conceals so well, so I'll continue to train with it. I'll give it another 500 rounds or so, and if I don't have acceptable combat accuracy (to me) at 7 yards than it will get sold...

I have to commend your stick-to-it-ive-ness. I think you're making the right choice giving it your full effort before resorting to dumping the Kahr.

As mentioned (on THR), training is the key. As long as the weapon is not an impossible match for your body metrics, you should be able to work out the bugs with training.

I can't stress enough how helpful dry firing has been to my accuracy. I'm sure you know the drills...slow steady pulls (with an unloaded weapon), keeping the sights alligned all the way through. I think dedicating some time to this daily should help most any shooter.

I also found snap caps helpful for getting rid of flinching. Mix a couple snap caps in with your magazines at the range. (try not to let yourself know where they are in the stack - maybe even have someone else load them for you) Then, when a cap comes up, it'll be a surprise to you, and if you're flinching in any way/direction, you'll know it, because your sights will move. They should stay perfectly on target, all the way through the "misfire" of the caps.

Have you considered a marksmanship class? I have no doubt that a professional that could watch your technique could identify the issue much easier than we could ever hope to.

Maybe your targets can provide more insight on the issue? You say that at 7 yards you can barely keep a 12" group, how is that group located? Is it simply scattered all over the target? Where you're hitting can partially diagnose your problems. Here's a chart for reference:

Pistol Shooters Diagnostic Chart - THR (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=126680)

Let us know how it goes!

[ltxi]

That snap cap thingy is a really good suggestion. I'm having a tough time getting my wife to adapt to DAO semi-autos. She's fine with a 1911 or any other SA with a crisp trigger, but she consistently anticipates the break with our Kahrs. Oddly enough, she doesn't have the problem with her K-frame Smith.

[Strikefire83]

they are certainly not the gun for everyone, Unless one has some real shooting knowledge, and prior experience with a semi, again the kahr might not be for them.Hey, jocko, I remember you from the KTOG, the high road, and other gun forums. I have no interest in your particular brand of "council," and as for your 25,000 rounds, weren't you still saying 10k about six months ago? Please check the condescending BS at the door, and sell your snake oil elsewhere. How is it nobody's ever seen one of your targets? I've been shooting semi-autos for about five years now, since I turned 21, have plenty of "real shooting knowledge and prior experience" thank you very much.

Parasite and Itxi...thanks for the advice! Been dry-firing at the tv screen for two days, hopefully getting better. Going to try and get out to the range Monday or Tuesday and I'll post pics of my targets when I have them.

[jocko]

wow, what hostilities, from a 4 poster. good luck with that attitude, you won't ever have to worry about any counciling from me for you anyway. Most seem to appreciate courtesy on this forum evidetnly you have come on here with a nice chip on your shoulder of which I am sure many of the good posters here will be more than willing to knock off...

Nice that you "remembered me" I never remembered you..

Now that you have turned 21, try acting like an adult...

[DETROIT]

^ There is a big difference between the old Lady K (before the 03 and k98) and the PM9. I was able to adapt to the K9's trigger pull rather fast. There are a few things I would like to try with my PM9 that may help.

1. Have a lower 9mm round made for testing (less the 115)
2. Try an alter the frame to raise my grip
3. Maybe a NY style trigger to retrain my trigger pull?
4. Compensated cuts in the barrel and slide

[johnh]

Please keep the discussion civil here. Members are just trying to help out based on the OP report of problems, and none of us want to see a new Kahr shooter give up without getting help. There are no problems that cannot be resolved in my experience even in the unlikely event that a gun is in some way defective.

John

[varoadking]

I have over 25,000+ rounds out of my PM9...

:blah:


...as for your 25,000 rounds, weren't you still saying 10k about six months ago?

25,000 rounds does seem to be a goodly amount thru a PM9, doesn't it? Maybe he has serial number AA0001... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/varoadking/anim_rofl2.gif

[jocko]

:blah:



25,000 rounds does seem to be a goodly amount thru a PM9, doesn't it? Maybe he has serial number AA0001... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/varoadking/anim_rofl2.gif

ur quote was for me,, saying I lied. Now you go back and find the date where I stated I had 10,000 rounds 6 MONTHS AGO. I will gladly resign from this forum.

Maybe because you don't shoot as much as I do, then it is impossable for anyone to do so, or maybe you don't think a kahr can take 25,000 rounds.

But to believe or not, is not really your call as far as I am concerned. I know what I have done if you want to come my way and bring lots of ammo and we will see how well or how bad my PM9 works. I wish I had serial # 1 also but I don't. It has had extensive cylinder and slide work done to it(which was IMO a waste of money) and some super grip stippling work done to it.
Some seem to come on this forum and on other kahr forums and knock the hell out of kahrs. My 3 are super great guns, so cannot I brag on them???? Is it my fault that I like to shoot my kahrs more than my G19?????

I guess because my kahrs have thousands of rounds out of them and most of the readers here and there do not,, that makes me out a liar for we all know,, NO KAHR CAN BE THAT GOOD NOW CAN THEY????

It is alittle disgusting for me to half to defend myself but I guess it is the internet...:33:

[johnh]

Okay, this thread has run its course.

John