10mm - Any Interest in a 10mm Kahr?

[flyandscuba]

After successfully converting my SigArms Mauser M2 and current production AMT BackUp pistols to 10mm Auto, I started looking a little closer at my Kahr P45. At the minimum, a barrel change with one chambered in 10mm Auto with the external dimensions of the existing .45 ACP barrel would be required.

The existing P45 magazine will hold, retain, and feed 10mm cartridges in my personal P45.

The breechface and extractor for the .45 ACP is a questionable area. Although I can hand cycle 10mm Auto snap caps through my P45, I do see where at least a more narrow breechface to .40 S&W/10mm dimensions would be beneficial. A redesigned extractor may add to reliability as well. I would expect a stronger recoil spring may be desired -- but not necessarily required.

So, I defintely think that a Kahr P45-sized pistol chambered in 10mm is not only a possibility -- but a somewhat easy re-tool for a manufacturer like Kahr to undertake. Having met and talked with Justin Moon (Kahr's owner) at several SHOT Shows, I've experienced that he is very approachable and likes to talk guns with his customers. So, I decided to send an email to Kahr to pose the idea. Not having Mr. Moon's email address, I sent the message quoted below to the sales executive for my geographic area in hopes that it will be passed up the chain of leadership within the company.

I indicated in the message that I think the group of 10mm owners and fans here would have a positive response to the proposal. If you agree -- please make your desires and opinions clear in responses to this post. Hopefully, Mr. Moore and Mr. Moon will be by to see what you have to say.

Thanks!
flyandscuba

Mr. Moore,

I've got a proof or concept idea that I request you to please pass along to Justin Moon. I have been involved with firearms for decades and I am an avid hunter, shooter, and owner of Kahr firearms.

During the past year, I have embarked in some firearms projects where I have successfully converted stock handguns originally designed in .45 ACP to 10mm Auto. The first project was the conversion of a long discontinued offering by SigArms under the Mauser name called the M2. It was a relatively simple conversion since I was fortunate that the .40 S&W offering of the M2 was basically the same pistol as the .45 ACP offering in all dimensions but the breechface and barrel bore. The .40 S&W magazine incorporated a spacer in essentially the original .45 ACP magazine. Remove the spacer from the magazine and ream the chamber of the .40 S&W barrel to 10mm Auto specifications and the conversion was complete -- resulting in a fully functional compact 10mm pistol which handles the recoil of the 10mm Auto cartridge well.

Next, I took a new production (High Standard) AMT BackUp chambered in .40 S&W that is basically identical to the original .45 ACP design -- again, except for a spacer in the magazine and a barrel with a .40 caliber bore. I removed the magazine spacer and had the chamber reamed for 10mm Auto, successfully producing what I believe to be the first true pocket pistol chambered in 10mm Auto. Again, the converted firearm is completely functional -- even with full-power ammunition offered by companies such as Double Tap and Buffalo Bore.

I am a fan of the 10mm Auto cartridge because I believe that it is one of the most versatile chamberings for handguns today. It can be down-loaded appropriately for self defense purposes without risk of over penetration -- or made with full power ballistics for hunting use or needs where barrier penetration are important.

Where am I going with this you might ask? One of my favorite Kahr pistols in my collection is the P45 with the blackened slide. It has been a frequent CCW choice for me, riding in a wonderful IWB holster handcrafted by Matt DelFatti. After my two previous successful conversion projects, I started looking a little closer at my P45. Interestingly, the P45 magazine -- with no modification -- will hold 7 rounds of 10mm Auto ammunition. No adjustments were required to the feed lips to hold and retain the cartridges. The overall length of the 10mm Auto cartridge is almost identical to the .45 ACP cartridge -- thus why the previous conversions were even possible in the earlier projects.

So, in order to make a 10mm Auto version of the P45 (call it the P10?) -- all that would be needed to make a functioning conversion would be to produce a barrel with a .40 caliber bore and chambered to 10mm specifications with the external dimensions of the existing P45 .45ACP barrel. In order to ensure complete reliability, altering the slide design to incorporate a .40 S&W/10mm Auto breechface and possibly producing a different extractor (the existing extractor will extract 10mm Auto snap caps when hand cycled in my P45) would be beneficial, as well as possibly a stronger recoil spring. Each of those design changes -- new barrel, narrow cut breechface, altered extractor, and stronger spring -- are relatively simple changes for a manufacturer such as Kahr, and your parts suppliers.

Although the 10mm Auto cartridge does not have the massive following of law enforcement today thanks to the FBI and resulting development of the .40 S&W cartridge -- it does have a significant base of shooters and firearm owners like myself who enjoy the versatility of the cartridge for sporting and self defense purposes. Otherwise, companies like Colt, Glock, Kimber, EAA, and S&W would not be currently producing firearms to use the 10mm Auto cartridge. Furthermore, I doubt that Glock would have recently released the "SF", or short frame versions of the G20 and G29 if they were not selling in significant quantity. Almost every 10mm Auto shooter that I know personally has added one of the new "SF" Glocks to their collection since they have been available within the past two years. Likewise, I doubt that S&W would have decided to include a 10mm Auto version of their recent Scandium frame "Night Guard" revolvers if the market research did not indicate brisk sales from the 10mm Auto fans.

So, I ask that you run the idea by Mr. Moon. Consider offering a P45-sized pistol chambered in 10mm Auto. They will surely sell -- I know that I would buy one tomorrow if it was available, as that platform is the most comfortable self defense handgun I own for IWB carry as a concealed weapon. I would even be happy to beta-test the proof of concept in my own P45 if you or your parts supplier would produce a barrel for me to purchase with the external dimensions of the existing P45 barrel -- but with the .40 caliber bore and a chamber reamed to 10mm Auto specifications. I would provide complete testing results to include function and ballistic performance, write articles for publication -- whatever you would desire in terms of documentation of the proof of concept.

If there is any uncertainty that a 10mm Auto offering by Kahr would sell -- and become popular -- simply watch as I pose the question to the 10-Ring section of GlockTalk and see the response from the 10mm Auto shooters and fans. I expect the response will be siginificant.

I appreciate your time to read my request -- and I thank you and Mr. Moon for a company that produces quality and very practical handguns suitable for concealed carry permit/license-holding gun owners in America.

Respectfully,

[hedgehog]

I don't see that happening. but i'd love to see your personal version if you do partake in this idea !

[Bawanna]

It seems to me that since a 40 is a detuned 10mm since at the time of the 10mm concept the guns couldn't handle the pressures it would be easier to start with a 40 Kahr. The breech face, extractor and everything should be ready to go. I suspect that since the 40 is built to handle the higher 40 pressures it would be a better choice than the 45 as well.
While you have my 100 percent support, a 10mm Kahr would be down on my gun want list, not down too far mind ya but not at the top.
If my wanting one helps your cause in the slightest, sign me up . I want one.
Good luck however it shakes out.

[flyandscuba]

In the case of the Kahr, the .40 S&W model is not a candidate for conversion to 10mm because the OAL of the 10mm cartridge is too long for the magazine, magazine well of the frame, ejection port, and the barrel hood/lock.

The .45 ACP model has the OAL problem solved. With the P45, the magazine will even hold and retain the 10mm cartridges without modification to the feed lips. I believe the P45 would function with a simple barrel change to one chambered in 10mm. However, to ensure complete reliability -- ideally the breech face and extractor would be modified in a production 10mm pistol.

Again, all of these changes are relatively simple for a CNC manufacturer like Kahr.

Some may feel the pressures and recoil of the 10mm too great to be considered. However, after I successfully converted the smaller AMT BackUp to 10mm -- and have a completely functional firearm -- I have no concerns that a 10mm P45-sized pistol would be just as successful.

[mr surveyor]

Fly

First, welcome to KahrTalk. It's really good to see you around. I read and followed your work on the AMT at "USR", and found it very interesting. I think you are definately on to something. My only thought would be to make the conversion on the steel frame rather than the poly frame.

Personally, I would be interested in a small framed 10mm pistol. As you may recall, I have pretty short, stubby fingers, and a flat sided single stack is about all I can confortably handle. I think it would be great if you can get this thing going.

surv

[copterdrvr]

My only thought is that this thing would be a real "handcannon" that would be a bear to shoot! As light as these pistols are, I'd think that the recoil would be shall we say, considerable!!!

I'd think it would be like shooting a 40 cal KelTec only worse and THAT'S a pleasure I can pass on! Heck, I'm not that thrilled about shooting my P9F a whole bunch. My CW9 and PM9 are a pleasure to shoot, however.

[jlottmc]

I would like to see one, but the 10mm is just not a popular round. I would like to have one to play with, but until the supply issues get solved, then it would be just to play with. I asked about that here once and the response was pretty thin. I do however like the 10mm, and as I said if the ammo and accessory supply issue is remedied I would love to own one. As it is I have no time to roll my own.

[flyandscuba]

In the interest or creating more interest... I thought I'd post some pics of the other two conversions that I have completed and some results from range trips.

First, was the SigArms Mauser M2. This pistol was originally designed as a .45 ACP platform. When they introduced the .40 S&W version of the pistol, they simply modified the magazine by installing a spacer, revised the breech face of the slide, and rechambered the barrel to .40 S&W -- all other dimensions of the pistol remained the same as the original .45 ACP variant.

So, in order to convert the M2 to 10mm -- the spacer was removed from the magazine in about 30 seconds with a flat blade screw driver. The OAL of the 10mm cartridge is nearly identical to the .45 ACP cartridge, so the 10mm ammunition fits nicely into what used to be a .40 S&W M2 magazine. A couple of extra barrels were purchased from Numrich and taken to a local gunsmith who reamed the chambers out to 10mm specs. The barrels were a drop-in fit into the pistol. Everything was reassembled and the pistol functioned flawlessly as a 10mm firearm from the very first range session.






Next was the conversion of a new production (High Standard is making them in Houston, TX) AMT BackUp pistol. Again, the DAO BackUp was originally designed as a .45 ACP -- with subsequent versions offered in .40 S&W, .357 Sig, 9mm, .30 Carbine, and .400 CorBon. The dimensions of the subsequent models remained the same as the orignal .45 version. As with the SigArms Mauser M2, a spacer was placed into the magazine for the .40 S&W, .357 Sig, and 9mm versions. I started with a .40 S&W version and had the barrel reamed by the local gunsmith to 10mm specs. Removal of the spacer from the magazine was just as easy as with the M2 -- a few seconds with a flat blade screw driver. The pistol was reassembled and functioned well during the first range session. As you can see from a comparison picture with my Rohrbaugh R9S -- the AMT BackUp has a very small footprint for a 10mm pistol capable of handling full-power loadings from DoubleTap ammunition.









Here are the results of the first range session with full power loads -- Double Tap 165gr Golden Sabers fired from a good self defense distance of 3 yards (21 feet), slow fire standing. Given that there is no sight on the pistol other than a channel in the slide, accuracy was quite acceptable for a true pocket carry 10mm pistol.





This is quite the little hand cannon, but recoil is completely controllable for me.

Knowing how pleasant the Kahr P45 is to shoot full power loads in .45 ACP, I have no doubt that the design and recoil system of the P45 would handle the 10mm cartridge adequately. If I could locate a supplier to manufacture a 10mm barrel for my personal P45, I'd convert it in a heartbeat to prove the concept and create a favorite personal CCW.

[flyandscuba]

I would like to see one, but the 10mm is just not a popular round. I would like to have one to play with, but until the supply issues get solved, then it would be just to play with. I asked about that here once and the response was pretty thin. I do however like the 10mm, and as I said if the ammo and accessory supply issue is remedied I would love to own one. As it is I have no time to roll my own.

I've had no problem finding 10mm ammunition. In order to get the best full power loadings available (rather than the 10mm-light or FBI loads offered by many big name manufacturers), one only needs to go to Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Swamp Fox, or CorBon. For target and plinking work, Georgia Arms has had "canned heat" in 10mm at every gun show I've attended in the past year.

As far as being "popular" -- no, the big name ammo manufacturers tend to focus more on the weaker .40 S&W cartridge. However, to the shooters and sportsmen who have discovered the 10mm cartridge and it's versatility (from a 125gr Barnes X HP screaming out at 1600 fps to a 230gr Hard Cast lead bullet with extreme penetration) -- the 10mm cartridge is extremely "popular".

Before May of this year, I owned no 10mm firearms. I now own 10 of them and am always on the lookout for more that interest me. I am truly a convert. I still like my other caliber firearms (especially my Kahrs) -- but when I have a choice concealment for carry, I will choose one chambered in 10mm.

Regards.

[Bawanna]

Darn, I'd sure like to shoot that little AMT just a time or two. That has got to be a little hand cannon for sure. Sweet.
This would be a sweet conversion on our much dreamed of K45 or even MK45. Many of us are still waiting on that one also. That might be a great match for the 10mm concept for sure.